From: Ramez Naam (mez@apexnano.com)
Date: Thu Feb 20 2003 - 00:58:38 MST
From: Lee Corbin [mailto:lcorbin@tsoft.com]
> Are you sure that any exterior *power* really has the ability
> to do such farsighted surgery on a nation, and change its
> culture in the process? It would be instructive to consider
> cases in world history where this has been done. Do you know of
any?
Sure. The US in Japan. China in its own rural areas. Rome in its
provinces. Heck, Britain in large swaths of the world!
> mez:
> > We destroyed a country and toppled its government.
>
> Isn't that an exaggeration?
You're right, it is. 20 years of warfare had already destroyed the
country's infrastructure. We did a bit more damage, but mostly the
country was already destroyed by the time we got there. My apologies
for exaggerating.
> 1. The legal rights of individuals must be sacrosanct,
> and all individuals must be equal before the law.
> 2. Government corruption must be minimal.
> 3. Private property must be totally respected under
> the law.
> 4. Private property must be an integral part of the
> legal system, and publicly registered. This includes
> all businesses and real estate. (This is DeSoto's
> conclusion after 20 years' study.)
> 5. A high level of trust for others outside one's own
> family must be achievable, otherwise it is not possible
> to create firms of any size.
This is a great list. I would certainly add to this list - education
and infrastructure both accelerate growth. I'd also note that every
item on the list you have above boils down to the rule of law. To
establish that rule of law in Iraq is going to take time and patience
on the part of the US. If we install a new government and leave, the
odds are against the establishment of the rule of law any time soon.
If we stick around for years and maybe even multiple decades, we can
help establish it.
My question again is: Does the US have the commitment to stick around
in Iraq long enough to establish a stable and prosperous democracy?
This is (mostly) not about money - its about US presence in the area.
> For it can well-inhere in the cultural foundations of a
> society or civilization. While Turkey, or perhaps soon
> Iran or Iraq, may aspire to Western level prosperity, it
> could be deep-seated relationships between the culture that
> animates the lives of their millions of citizens, their
> religions, and their histories that simply cannot be changed
> except over the course of many, many decades, if at all.
Lee, I think this argument boils down to "Muslims aren't cut out for
democracy". I think the evidence is otherwise. Turkey is a fully
functioning democracy with 63 million citizens. Indonesia, the most
populous muslim state, is a democracy, if a young and fragile one.
Lebanon is a democracy. Voter turnout for Iran's last election was
83%. 83%!!! When was the last time the US had that kind of voter
turnout? Pro-democracy forces in Iran were steadily making headway in
the country until Bush energized their fundamentalist foes with the
"axis of evil" and a first-strike policy.
A desire for self-rule is a basic part of humans. Most arabs hate
their corrupt, dictatorial governments, and for good reason. What
they need is help from a strong democratic power like the US to help
install and shepherd democracy in their countries.
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