From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Thu Feb 20 2003 - 03:18:27 MST
Mez writes
> > Are you sure that any exterior *power* really has the ability
> > to do such farsighted surgery on a nation, and change its
> > culture in the process? It would be instructive to consider
> > cases in world history where this has been done. Do you know of
> > any?
>
> Sure. The US in Japan. China in its own rural areas. Rome in its
> provinces. Heck, Britain in large swaths of the world!
Mike Lorrey had a wonderful phrase, that I can't find, for
what happened to the mind-set in Germany and Japan. But
I'm speaking of "working" society models as opposed to
models that aren't "working". China and Rome retained
these areas as part of an empire---no one wants that.
Britain too, although what happened in India over the
course of 200 years might be a good model. Yet even there,
look what happened as soon as they left.
But you make a good point, at least vis-a-vis some place
like India. The people there did pick up democracy.
But take the Philippines, for example. The Americans
ruled there for decades. Then independence was granted,
and 26 years later there was Marcos:
http://www.tribo.org/history/history2.html
But tell us more about Egypt. Have you read Hernando
DeSoto's book "The Mystery of Capitalism"? He tries
hard to explain the poverty of Egypt, even given the
peace and support over the past decades.
> > 1. The legal rights of individuals must be sacrosanct,
> > and all individuals must be equal before the law.
> > 2. Government corruption must be minimal.
> > 3. Private property must be totally respected under
> > the law.
> > 4. Private property must be an integral part of the
> > legal system, and publicly registered. This includes
> > all businesses and real estate. (This is DeSoto's
> > conclusion after 20 years' study.)
> > 5. A high level of trust for others outside one's own
> > family must be achievable, otherwise it is not possible
> > to create firms of any size.
>
> This is a great list. I would certainly add to this list - education
> and infrastructure both accelerate growth. I'd also note that every
> item on the list you have above boils down to the rule of law.
Outstanding perception. I'm just starting Bethell's "The Noblest
Triumph", which explains that its law that influences economy,
not, as everyone for 150 has been supposing, the other way around.
And law should be mostly about *property*. He explains utterly
convincingly the central and fundamental importance of private
property, and is even able to explain England's origin of the
industrial revolution and other kinds of progress: they happened
to have the most secure individual property rights in Europe.
> To establish that rule of law in Iraq is going to take time and patience
> on the part of the US. If we install a new government and leave, the
> odds are against the establishment of the rule of law any time soon.
> If we stick around for years and maybe even multiple decades, we can
> help establish it.
Perhaps you are right.
> My question again is: Does the US have the commitment to stick around
> in Iraq long enough to establish a stable and prosperous democracy?
> This is (mostly) not about money - it's about US presence in the area.
I have no idea. Supposing for a moment that you are right about
this, we have to understand that the U.S. might take a lot of
heat about such "colonialization" or "imperialism". Still, there
is the oil ;-)
> Lee, I think [your] argument boils down to "Muslims aren't cut out for
> democracy". I think the evidence is otherwise.
Yes. I did regret that after I posted it, because it had that
implication. I stand corrected. I agree that it seems that
Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and several other countries in the region
can progress. Doesn't it come down to whether the people can
outgrow fundamentalism? I cannot quite call to mind an
interesting analysis that said those countries break down
in a 2x2 array: one dimension was modernity.
Lee
> Pro-democracy forces in Iran were steadily making headway in
> the country until Bush energized their fundamentalist foes with the
> "axis of evil" and a first-strike policy.
>
> A desire for self-rule is a basic part of humans. Most Arabs hate
> their corrupt, dictatorial governments, and for good reason. What
> they need is help from a strong democratic power like the US to help
> install and shepherd democracy in their countries.
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