From: John B (discwuzit@yahoo.com)
Date: Fri Jul 25 2003 - 08:02:31 MDT
[quote from: Lee on 2003-07-25 at 01:26:56]
Ramez writes
> > The question is, how accurate is his worry that by \"playing
> > along\" with the system for two more years, he will compromise
> > his own resistance?
>
> Surely this is a judgment call based on the strength of conviction of
> the individual and just how large the gap is between his beliefs and
> the beliefs he would pretend at.
Yes, sounds right.
<<< Also depends on how skilled this protagonist is at prevarication. IE -
can he
lie like a rug? (also see below)
> I think a good place to search for past examples of this is in
> espionage. What little I know of the field leads me to believe that a
> great many spies have been in \"deep cover\" for years at a time without
> switching allegiances. Or at least, that's how it is in the spy
> movies and books. :)
Ah, great! The *perfect* analogy---completely lighting up
the whole inquiry. I think you've settled it! Thanks.
<<< Sorry, gotta disagree. There are SOME similarities, but I have to agree
with Randall's earlier post that there're some critical differences between a
trained agent provocateur with a support mechanism, a person in this
fictional
position, and the subjects of brainwashing efforts.
A trained agent is given information about the situation that the other two
lack -
how to deal with the so-called Stockholm Syndrome aka capture bonding, they
are generally well-balanced professionals with a professional listener
working
with them - their "controller" in spy-fiction terms - and are often
ideologically
prepared or selected for proper ideological structure. Even so, there are
stories
of people 'going native' or cracking under the stress of such a prolonged
mental
and emotional effort.
The fictional example is quite different. This person has no special
training, no
safe way to vent, is under an even greater level of stress, has a strong
moral
conflict (I hate 'em, they control me - yet they prevent lots of nastiness),
etc.
Quite frankly, unless this person had an absolutely inhuman degree of self
control,
I don't rate their ability to evade detection very highly. This would change
if the
person could find some one or ones who have the same knowledge they can share
and vent with - but this also increases the stress, worry about betrayal,
etc.
The kids, however, do NOT have a strong motivation other than those provided
by
the staff. They do NOT have high degrees of acting/lying skill. They do NOT
have
anywhere to vent to except by increasing the pressure on others in the
program.
They do NOT have a strong core of personal values - they're still working on
'em,
and that one 'record-holding' girl is the exception which proves the point,
and even
SHE folded in the end. Poor kid!
-John
---- This message was posted by John B to the Extropians 2003 board on ExI BBS. <http://www.extropy.org/bbs/index.php?board=67;action=display;threadid=56584>
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