From: Eliezer S. Yudkowsky (sentience@pobox.com)
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 20:34:37 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
>>
>> I have marked patriotism and loyalty as "considered harmful" since
>> before the age of sixteen. I have seen nothing within the recent
>> debacle on the Extropian mailing list that leads me to reconsider
>> this. "Patriotism switches on, brain switches off" appears to be the
>> rule.
>
> Surely that's an exaggeration!
Only slightly. To the extent that patriotism switches on, the brain
switches off. To the extent that the brain stays on, it's because
patriotism is being kept on a leash.
> Many extremely thoughtful and calmly, deliberately rational people
> partly extend the notion of self to cover larger groups, and this often
> manifests as loyalty and, on the level of nations, patriotism.
You're the only aspiring rationalist I know of who seems to think that
patriotism should be acceptable. But then you are an interestingly
strange person in many ways.
> Now you can readily see the evolutionary sources of such conduct; so I
> infer that the above is a personal statement. You might say if there
> are other groups, possibly a family, possibly a group of friends or
> associates, that you have such regard for. It's not entirely a matter
> of rationality: notice how you react when a statement is made
> concerning your own integrity or past wisdom on some matters close to
> your heart. I doubt that you wish to claim that you always remain an
> objective observer when personal matters are concerned.
I try.
>> I shall side with the right whether it be this country or another.
>> Patriotism cannot help, can only hinder, in computing this. If
>> America is right then America is right whether I had been born
>> American or French. If America is wrong then America is wrong
>> whether I had been born British or Iraqi.
>
> Yes, I think that's right. But this doesn't cut as close to the issues
> as it could in my opinion. Namely, you won't find anyone here arguing
> that America is right if they think that America is wrong. If you
> don't truly know what it's like to have loyalty to a group, I'm hardly
> going to be able to explain it to you. (You may indeed be an extreme
> case.)
I know exactly what it is like. That's *why* I consider it harmful.
Patriotism skews people's ability to analyze which side, if any, is in the
right.
> I have seen people who are otherwise not engaged with any group exhibit
> loyalty to "the Extropians". All people, I think, are wired at a level
> immune from memes to have a team to root for (just think of teenagers
> and their peer group or sports fans and their favorite teams)---it's
> just a matter of degree. Again, it's important to realize that this
> did not occur by chance in the evolutionary heritage of the human race;
> it has had survival value.
In a 200-person hunter-gatherer tribe, it had personal reproductive value.
Not necessarily survival value. Not necessarily today. And not
necessarily value relative to my goals.
-- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
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