From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 18:44:11 MDT
Eliezer writes
> > Well, we should inspect the tiny kernel of truth in such charges,
> > if any such truth there be. For example, I had difficulty *while
> > the war was on* (a brief time indeed), not thinking of American
> > dissenters as treasonous---I even provided definitions of "treason".
> > This, IMO, *should* give rise to sincere questions about patriotism
> > and loyalty, and what roles they truly ought to play, according to
> > the visions of the various posters. Thankfully, such discussions
> > have taken place, (and I'm even still interested in the topic, though
> > perhaps that should warrant a separate thread).
>
> I have marked patriotism and loyalty as "considered harmful" since before
> the age of sixteen. I have seen nothing within the recent debacle on the
> Extropian mailing list that leads me to reconsider this. "Patriotism
> switches on, brain switches off" appears to be the rule.
Surely that's an exaggeration! Many extremely thoughtful and
calmly, deliberately rational people partly extend the notion
of self to cover larger groups, and this often manifests as
loyalty and, on the level of nations, patriotism.
Now you can readily see the evolutionary sources of such
conduct; so I infer that the above is a personal statement.
You might say if there are other groups, possibly a family,
possibly a group of friends or associates, that you have such
regard for. It's not entirely a matter of rationality: notice
how you react when a statement is made concerning your own
integrity or past wisdom on some matters close to your heart.
I doubt that you wish to claim that you always remain an
objective observer when personal matters are concerned.
> I shall side with the right whether it be this country or another.
> Patriotism cannot help, can only hinder, in computing this. If
> America is right then America is right whether I had been born
> American or French. If America is wrong then America is wrong
> whether I had been born British or Iraqi.
Yes, I think that's right. But this doesn't cut as close to the
issues as it could in my opinion. Namely, you won't find anyone
here arguing that America is right if they think that America is
wrong. If you don't truly know what it's like to have loyalty to
a group, I'm hardly going to be able to explain it to you. (You
may indeed be an extreme case.)
I have seen people who are otherwise not engaged with any group
exhibit loyalty to "the Extropians". All people, I think, are
wired at a level immune from memes to have a team to root for
(just think of teenagers and their peer group or sports fans
and their favorite teams)---it's just a matter of degree. Again,
it's important to realize that this did not occur by chance in
the evolutionary heritage of the human race; it has had survival value.
The question for most of us will turn out to be how appropriate
is it at this point in history or within a large powerful
Western nation to try to hold in check one's native disposition?
Or conversely, with those not well-endowed by nature with a team
spirit, how right (as well as prudent) is it to now embrace a
people or a cause that has had a good track record?
Either way, of course, it's almost impossible if it's not in
accord with the way you are.
Lee
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