From: John Grigg (starman2100@lycos.com)
Date: Sat Jan 11 2003 - 21:23:52 MST
Brett,
I have enjoyed this exchange very much. My responses are below in parentheses. I would hope other people on the list would throw in their opinions on these matters.
John Grigg wrote:
> Brett Paatsch wrote:
> Let me be a bit less definitionally fixated. The sort of politics
> I am interested in, and I think many on the ExI list would be
> interested in, is the sort of politics that is concerned not with
> mere esoteric discussions, but with actually forging particular
> futures from a range of possible futures. Not with merely
> examining the world including the broader social world but
> engaging with it. I, and I presume most on the ExI list want
> not so much to be concerned with mere ideology, mere
> philosophy or religion (actually in my case religion needs
> separate consideration) but with pragmatic approaches to
> the propagating of good memes and towards increasing the
> likelihood that good, or at least better social policies rather
> than bad or inferior ones will be implemented.
> (end)
G'day John,
(Howdy from Arizona!)
> So we should be doers of the meme and not hearers only? : )
Well, memes as I understand them are particular ideas that are
able to be communicated, so we wouldn't actually *do* them so
much, as promote or propagate what we think are good ones.
(Ahh..., but aren't those the particular ideas which motivate our actions?)
> Don't you realize just how fun esoteric discussions can be?
Yeah, I sure do : )
> lol Actually, we have had some good threads on pragmatic
> approaches to "propagate the memes" but as has been said
> before, leading extropians is sort of like herding cats.
A good line : )
(I wish I knew who originally came up with it.)
>
> you continue:
> My interest, (perhaps call?) to politics, or "social politics",
> if you prefer is a call to relevant pragmatic action *in the
> world* to achieve our objects knowing we will be confronted
> all along the way with the "you should not play God" charge
> as though we actually have a choice on that matter.
> (end)
>
> So..., you wish us to engage wholeheartedly in grassroots
> social activism? : )
I wouldn't have put it quite like that, but maybe. I'm not really
sure what *you* have in mind by "grassroots social activism".
(I envision local extropian/transhumanist/cryonics groups gathering on a regular basis and getting involved in their communities by a combination of mass media involvement (if they have the talents and to an extent the credentials), sponsoring lectures and seminars(on a very basic level), and when necessary going out and picketing & raising a little hell to counter outspoken luddites who are usually the only squeaky wheels around when news cameras are around. They would be at least nominally guided/advised by Max More, Natasha Vita-More, Greg Burch, Harvey Newstrom and other wise ExI officers/members who could help them to do well and not have things blow up in their face.)
(VOLUNTEERING (I'm sure they could find worthy projects) to be seen as a force for good (and also actually BE a force for good) by the people around them would also be a huge boon to us. How about "eductional toys for tots" sponsored by your cities local Extropian chapter? The possibilities could be endless here.)
> It is a method those on the "other side"
> have used for years and done very, very well with.
I recently went through Natasha's presentation on Pro-Act.
Have you seen it? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if
by 'those on the "other side", you are referring to the same
organisations as Natasha identified in the presentation?
(I was there when she gave it at Extro-5. Perhaps instead of saying "other side" I should have said "the dark side as lead by Jeremy rifkin who some see as the spider in the center of the web." lol I look forward to seeing Natasha get better and have the time and resources to move forward with Pro-Act.)
> Of course
> "grassroots social activists" often have very professional
> organizations and personalities guiding them along.
I guess they could. But I imagine they might be a bit of a mix.
>
> It seems to me we have had an elite of extropian leaders who
> have the personalities, intellect, education, reputation, and
> charm necessary to get interviewed in the mass media,
> engage in public debates and publish articles in widely read
> or at least influential publications.
Yes there are lots of very capable people associated with ExI.
(It's time to better harness them.)
> Max and Natasha come
> to mind along with a few others, but I just wonder if their
> influence alone is really enough?
Well, as you've said, they are not alone, and it seems to me
that both Max and Natasha are pretty knowledgeable about
practical ways of building an organisation and increasing the
reach of their positive influence. I don't know that they have
managed to "herd cats" as such but some impressive "cats"
are still coming voluntarily to this particular waterhole.
(As Max and Natasha know, extropian "cool cats" must be encouraged and will just not be forced(as with real cats!) to do what they don't want to. I would simply like to see the extropian/transhumanist rank and file membership do much more and not just the more prominent members.)
> I view their efforts as a very good thing, but perhaps in time
> the "rank and file" of ExI can start doing much more. The
> move toward encouraging extropians to form local groups
> in their area was hopefully a step in that direction.
Sounds like a positive initiative. Just recently the WTA set
up a mailing list in Oz, but it seems to be struggling so far
because the content is quite similar to what you'd get on
larger international lists and the numbers interested are
proportionally smaller for Australian and New Zealand.
Seems like most folk have given up on it. Still a few good
esoteric conversations have started and continue ;-).
(If you happen to have Damien Broderick on it you are doing pretty dang good!)
> I remember when Mike Lorrey (perhaps to an extent
> motivated by frustration) tried to found his own organization
> to actually go out and do something in the local community.
> But his idea of putting pro-GM food labels on fruit may have
> been going too far.
Yeah, overcoming fears about GM foods is tough, but this is
exactly the sort of issue that I think is important for ExI to take
on at some stage because it is the same sort of fear about
biotechnology, largely coming from a lack or real understanding
that is likely to pop up again and again as extropians try and
encourage not just the development of new life enhancing
technologies but the legal environment in which they will be
permitted to use them.
My real concern about politics is in this area John. I retain a
healthy scepticism towards such issues as AI, molecular
nanotechnology, the singularity, cryonics and so on (I say try
because my natural inclination is to want good things to be
true but they won't happen if indeed they can happen unless
people make them happen). Now I am pretty confident that
the calibre of the folks I have seen on this list means that
some excellent brains are not just messing about in these
spaces but are pushing forward on solutions. But my own
area of deepest experience (not expertise by any means) is
probably more in the biotech area specifically in stem
cells. And what I have seen in the last couple of years or
really even since Dolly the clone was reported back in
November 1998 is a lot of political obstacles to potentially
life saving technologies going up, mainly due to ignorance
and fear. I am concerned that although we may have the
technological wherewithal to achieve radical life extension
and a number of other good things in our lives we may be
prevented from making the technological progress that
is possible due to political and sociological factors. In short
the very democracies in which we live may veto the things
we wish to do because a majority of voters will fear the
change and vote against it. Its because of my experience
as a stem cell lobbyist and my concern that the political
log jams may be so hard to push through in the timeframes
we'd like that I'm particularly interested in the practicalities of
forging change. Its in this sense of wanting to forge change
that I am thinking politically.
I understand Penicillin essentially sat on the shelf for something
like 20 years before it was actually mass produced and made
available to the general population, It took a war to get
it out of the lab and onto the market. Technology does not
always necessarily go quickly from discovery or development
to market, and I am concerned that sometimes people may
assume it does a little more easily than it does.
(These are very thought-provoking comments, though nothing which is really new to me. As a stem-cell lobbyist do you see broad and effective coalitions being formed to promote the wise use of the technology and counter opposition? And if so is it being funded and lead properly?)
(One reason cryonics attracts me is that it's the ultimate safety net should the war against aging not succeed fast enough for me(or wind up setback for decades). I had a cryonicist scientist friend tell me it will be at least fifty years till we are even close to biological immortality. Of course this is his personal opinion, but it I don't want to be eighty (I'm thirty-five now) and too old to be helped while twenty year-olds have a no sweat attitude.)
> In an "ideal world" ExI would have a billionaire patron who
> would lavish a $200 million dollar endowment upon it to
> achieve its goals.
To be honest John I find it as hard to visualise that scenario
as if you had asked me to picture a square with three sides.
(Men like Saul Kent, Will Falloon and David Pizer have "made their own luck" in terms of going out and actually becoming wealthy in large part with the goal of advancing cryonics and those things associated with it. I only wish Don Laughlin (about half-way to being a billionaire) would consider funding cryonics research and other initiatives, but he chooses not to.)
My sense of things is that billionaire patrons don't get to
be billionaire patrons and have $200 million dollars to endow
unless they are very very good at identifying exactly what
the particular goals are and at seeing or demanding to be
shown exactly *how* the endowment would be spent to
achieve those very particular goals.
(And for this very reason I could see Bill Gates or Larry Ellison choosing to start their own quasi-transhumanist organizations with agenda's custom tailored rather than going with ExI or someone similar. As age takes its toll on them and they continue to see biotech not advance as much as they would want, they may consider doing something big to turn the tide.)
I guess I'm saying get the goals right, get the game plan
right and the money can be found. Getting the goals and
the game plan right is very very hard though imo.
> But since something like that has so far
> not happened, we must (and they have) get by with what
> funds and volunteers there are.
>
> And yet many grassroots organizations have made huge
> strides and accomplished goals on very limited resources,
> so this is no real excuse for us. We must get creative and
> become "good guerilla fighters!" lol Certainly the books
> and training materials to do this are out there.
I think our ideas, and our ability to convey our ideas to a wider
community will be important. Of course its very hard to
convey ideas that suck, so the ideas really have to be good.
(Anders Sandberg, Max More, Eliezer Yudkowsky and others have eloquently discussed this matter in past threads.)
>
> If among extropy listmembers we had the will to act equal
> to the level of intellect here there would be no problem.
> Of course one or two really wrong steps in the public eye
> could do possibly incalculable damage. What will be done?
I've proposed a simple beginning. I've proposed we start by
tidying up some of the language and terminology we use so
that are thoughts are clearer and so that when we engage with
people and groups who oppose our aims we can do so more
effectively.
(Natasha Vita-More I believe did create a press kit to at least help somewhat in this area. I don't know to what extent it fleshes out the subject.)
I've proposed that extropians give up using the terms "belief",
"human life" and "human being". My reasons for this are
covered in other posts.
BTW. I do understand that you are both an extropian and
a Christian. That makes you somewhat unique in my experience,
I hope you don't take personal offence at anything I may say
that is critical of religion or belief or faith. It will definitely
not be intended as a personal criticism. I grew up in a Catholic
family and my parents are still practising. We disagree on
some things but the arguments (especially) with my mum
are always interesting and in good faith.
(If I took personal offence to what people said around here regarding religion I would have left ages ago! lol I suppose I have a foot each in two very different worlds, but that in some ways can be a good thing. I thank you for clarifying your desire to not offend me and I appreciate it. My own mother is a devout Mormon who is actually pretty supportive of my cryonics interests. Ironically my agnostic/atheist younger brother is the naysayer about it(he sees it as macabre and against nature).)
>
> I feel fortunate to be in my own way trying to do something.
> In time the Creekside Preserve Lodge where I work will
> branch out into the Ventureville cryonics community which
> will be a haven for both old and young cryonicists.
Sounds like a great idea. I wonder if this community will be
one of many. In a way I hope not, I hope most of us will
be able to avoid "the second worst thing that can happen
to us".
(Thank you for the praise. I would like to think other cryonics communities will be developed over time, but aside from the Timeship I just don't know.)
(It would be nice if most of us could avoid "the second worst thing" but I would not any chances! lol Robert Bradbury is convinced those who stay healthy in my age bracket and lower will make it across the "finish line" and I deeply hope he's right He is someone whose opinions on such matters I greatly respect due to his scientific/business background.)
> It will
> be the headquarters for The Society for Venturism which
> will along with protecting cryonicist's rights, also share with
> the world a message about the benefits of trying to attain
> physical immortality. And with the funds we make at
> Creekside we can empower our goal of doing this.
>
> One thing I am certain of is that we will need each other
> to see the kind of world we ultimately want.
That's a cert.
> And it will
> take people like Max More, Natasha Vita-More, and
> David Pizer (former Alcor V.P., founder of the Venturists
> and owner of the Creekside) to lead the way.
Well that will definitely be a plus. But maybe we can still
manage some serious progress forward if we have to carry
a few wounded.
(I can only hope so (and try to do something, too)!!)
> best wishes,
Likewise John, nice to meet you.
(Perhaps sometime we will meet at an Extro or Alcor conference if you are the traveling sort of Australian. And if that is so, you will have to stay at The Creekside Preserve Lodge if you are ever in the area for whatever reason.)
(John)
www.creeksidepreserve.com
Brett
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