From: Brett Paatsch (paatschb@ocean.com.au)
Date: Sun Jan 12 2003 - 22:59:01 MST
John Grigg [JG] wrote:
> I would hope other people on the list would throw in
> their opinions on these matters.
Yeah. Me too. BTW I think there is a lot that could be
usefully discussed in this thread, but to try and cover
it all in one post wound make things pretty unmanageable
so I hope you don't mind me taking it "in shifts" a bit.
> > > >Brett Paatsch [BP} wrote:
> >
> > The sort of politics I am interested in, and I think
> > many on the ExI list would be interested in, is the
> > sort of politics that is concerned not with mere
> > esoteric discussions, but with actually forging
> > particular futures from a range of possible futures.
> > I, and I presume most on the ExI list want not so
> > much to be concerned with mere ideology, mere
> > philosophy or religion but with pragmatic approaches
> > to the propagating of good memes and towards
> > increasing the likelihood that good, or at least better
> > social policies rather than bad or inferior ones will
> > be implemented.
> > (end)
.
>>>[JG]
> > So we should be doers of the meme and not hearers
> > only? : )
.
>> [BP]
> Well, memes as I understand them are particular ideas
> that are able to be communicated, so we wouldn't actually
> *do* them so much, as promote or propagate what we
> think are good ones.
.
> [JG}
> (Ahh..., but aren't those the particular ideas which motivate our
> actions?)
I think this is an important point you've raised. Memes
*can* be *both* "ideas" that influence how people "think"
and therefore act, but also because we recognize them as
potentially able to do this, we can set out to deliberately
promote some memes in favor of others.
Richard Dawkins coined the term "meme" in his book 'The
Selfish Gene' back in 1976. The idea of ideas replicating
themselves in peoples minds and "competing" and "cooperating"
with each other to get themselves replicated and spread into
other "minds" (in a manner similar to genes), was a popular one.
So popular that the meme of "meme" itself started to get talked
about quite a lot. No one, to my knowledge, has bothered to
coin a term for a meta-meme as such. So the meme of "memes",
is just another meme too. But it's a particularly powerful one.
And I think we can make use of it, both generally, to understand
the political world better, and specifically, to be more politically
effective in the world.
Its because the meme of "memes" is a meme itself, that we
can be *both* influenced by memes and deliberately set out
to propagate particular memes (such as the ExI principles
for instance) into our broader communities and societies.
Let me apologise in advance if I sometimes come across as
patronising, it may well be that *you* know all this. But as
Robert Bradbury noted in a recent post, just the stuff on the
ExI reading list is like a college education in volume in itself
and I'm trying to make sure that as many other readers who
may be interested can understand as possible. In democracies,
its the numbers of votes that turns certain social policies into
laws, and so I am keen to get as many people as possible
actively and effectively pursuing policies consistent with the
ExI Principles. Also, if I put things down, as *I* understand
them, and I'm wrong, then *my* mistakes will stick out and
others can correct or challenge me on them.
> >> > [BP]
> > My interest, (perhaps call?) to politics, or "social
> > politics", if you prefer is a call to relevant pragmatic
> > action *in the world* to achieve our objects knowing
> > we will be confronted all along the way with the "you
> > should not play God" charge as though we actually
> > have a choice on that matter.
> [JG]
> I envision local extropian/transhumanist/cryonics groups
> gathering on a regular basis and getting involved in their
> communities by a combination of mass media involvement
> (if they have the talents and to an extent the credentials),
> sponsoring lectures and seminars(on a very basic level), and
> when necessary going out and picketing & raising a little hell
> to counter outspoken luddites who are usually the only
> squeaky wheels around when news cameras are around.
I think in the US your larger population may make it easier
to achieve the sort of critical mass than here in Australia. If you
can get the local groups going that's great.
With the possible exception of "picketing & raising a little
hell" I think a lot of the activities you mention above would
raise awareness and help foster acceptance for extropic
memes such as radical life extension and others.
My concern with picketing etc is that it may be not be seen as
more than noise from small numbers. One for one, transhumanists
probably can't shout any louder, talk any longer, or be any more
passionately in favor of causes than other folk. So we need
to be smarter in our lobbying.
A point that I think might often be overlooked is that we don't
actually *need* to persuade the luddites in democracies unless
the luddites become a majority. We only need to outperform
the luddites in the political debates and public discourses so that
the vast majority of "undecideds" who are listening often without
commenting can see the sense in supporting the particular
extropic case rather than the luddite case.
In comparison with the luddites we do face a substantial
disadvantage though. Because we are the ones wanting to make
the changes, and the default position for the undecided folk is no
change. We actually have the burden of making the case. The
luddites just have to avoid losing, we actually have to win. And
because the "undecideds" have a whole bunch of other stuff on
their minds that usually seems more real and urgent than stem
cells, GM foods, genetic engineering, cryonics and nanotechnology.
we have to first get their interest and then make our case.
This is a critical point in my view, politically the luddites don't
have to make their case. We do. The undecideds are not stupid
but they do have a lot of other things competing for their attention
many of which will seem more real, urgent and relevant to them.
Little wonder most of the population most of the time is happy
to go along with conventional wisdom and popular beliefs.
.
> They would be at least nominally guided/advised by Max
> More, Natasha Vita-More, Greg Burch, Harvey Newstrom
> and other wise ExI officers/members who could help them
> to do well and not have things blow up in their face.)
I think it is important to protect the integrity of the Extropian
brand to a certain extent so that intelligent capable folk don't
stop being willing to associate themselves with it. We do need
flags to rally around if we are going to marshal concerted efforts
and it is important that those flags or brands like ExI don't get to
"tattered".
That said, the best insurance against an occasional botched
communication or high profile "bad egg" is probably a lot of
good quality communications and high profile "good eggs".
>
> (VOLUNTEERING (I'm sure they could find worthy
> projects) to be seen as a force for good (and also actually
> BE a force for good) by the people around them would
> also be a huge boon to us. How about "eductional toys for
> tots" sponsored by your cities local Extropian chapter?
> The possibilities could be endless here.)
Each idea needs to be considered on its merits and considered
I suggest in terms of opportunity costs. People more naturally
budget money than time. We need to do both lest we run out
of time.
>> > [JG]
> > It seems to me we have had an elite of extropian leaders who
> > have the personalities, intellect, education, reputation, and
> > charm necessary to get interviewed in the mass media,
> > engage in public debates and publish articles in widely read
> > or at least influential publications.
.
> > [BP]
> Yes there are lots of very capable people associated with ExI.
.
> [JG]
> It's time to better harness them.
I think you we're right about suspecting extropians will resist
harnessing : )
> > > [JG]
> > I remember when Mike Lorrey (perhaps to an extent
> > motivated by frustration) tried to found his own
> > organization to actually go out and do something in the
> > local community. But his idea of putting pro-GM food
> > labels on fruit may have been going too far.
.
> > [BP]
> Yeah, overcoming fears about GM foods is tough,
> but this is exactly the sort of issue that I think is important
> for ExI to take on at some stage because it is the same
> sort of fear about biotechnology, largely coming from
> a lack or real understanding that is likely to pop up
> again and again as extropians try and encourage not
> just the development of new life enhancing
> technologies but the legal environment in which they
> will be permitted to use them.
>
> My own area of deepest experience (not expertise
> by any means) is probably more in the biotech area
> specifically in stem cells. And what I have seen in the
> last couple of years or really ever since Dolly the clone
> was reported back in November 1998 is a lot of political
> obstacles to potentially life saving technologies going up,
> mainly due to ignorance and fear.
>
> I am concerned that, the very democracies in which
> we live, may veto the things we wish to do because a
> majority of voters will fear the change and vote against
> it. Its because of my experience as a stem cell lobbyist
> and my concern that the political log jams may be so hard
> to push through in the timeframes we'd like that I'm
> particularly interested in the practicalities of forging
> change. Its in this sense of wanting to forge change that
> I am thinking politically.
.
>[JG]
> These are very thought-provoking comments,
> though nothing which is really new to me. As a
> stem-cell lobbyist do you see broad and effective
> coalitions being formed to promote the wise use of
> the technology and counter opposition? And if so is
> it being funded and lead properly?)
I think I'd better answer this question later in another
post or this thread will be unmanageably long : )
I will come back to it.
>[JG]
> One reason cryonics attracts me is that it's the ultimate
> safety net should the war against aging not succeed fast
> enough for me(or wind up setback for decades).
I'm not yet certain cryonics will work myself but the
chances are better than burial or cremation.
> >[BP]
> I think our ideas, and our ability to convey our ideas to
> a wider community will be important. Of course its very
> hard to convey ideas that suck, so the ideas really have
> to be good.
> [JG]
> (Anders Sandberg, Max More, Eliezer Yudkowsky
and others have eloquently discussed this matter in past
threads.)
Yep I'm sure. I've probably seen some of the threads.
> > >[JG]
> > If among extropy listmembers we had the will to act
> > equal to the level of intellect here there would be no
> > problem. Of course one or two really wrong steps
> > in the public eye could do possibly incalculable
> > damage. What will be done?
>>[BP]
> I've proposed a simple beginning. I've proposed we
> start by tidying up some of the language and terminology
> we use so that our thoughts are clearer and so that when
> we engage with people and groups who oppose our aims
> we can do so more effectively.
> > [JG]
> > I feel fortunate to be in my own way trying to do
> > something. In time the Creekside Preserve Lodge
> > where I work will branch out into the Ventureville
> > cryonics community which will be a haven for both
> > old and young cryonicists.
Yes. It must be good to work in an area that you feel so
passionately about.
> [JG]
> (Perhaps sometime we will meet at an Extro or Alcor
> conference if you are the traveling sort of Australian. And
> if that is so, you will have to stay at The Creekside Preserve
> Lodge if you are ever in the area for whatever reason.)
I do intend to be more of the travelling sort of Australian at
some point. : ) And the US is probably the country I'd most
like to see. I'll remember The Creekside Preserve Lodge.
Regards,
Brett
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