From: Brett Paatsch (paatschb@ocean.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 06 2003 - 17:56:39 MST
Natasha wrote:
> From: Brett Paatsch
>
> >Whilst I understand Natasha concern, I am not sure that
> I can agree with Hubert's "assessment" this time. It may well
> be that certain memes can serve as bad examples and
> opportunities to differentiate ourselves in the eyes of newbies
> (and some not so newbies) I think this group *is* vital and
> energetic enough, and also that if it is to grow still more
> effective in propagating its memes then it will need to do so
> under environmental conditions that will not always be sweet
> sunshine and soft gentle rain.<
> ___________
>
> I think you may have taken this post too seriously, Brett.
Maybe. I do that sometimes : ).
>
> While I prefer to lay cards on the table, I also foster any bit
> of wisdom from life experience to steer clear of situations that
> suck energy. There are far better ways of driving the meme
> engine than to focus on negative commentary. Any smart
> book on business and psychological strategy will concer that
> 10% focus on the problem and 90% focus on the solution has a
> better chance of bringing about success.
On the first two quick reads of this I strongly agreed. But it occurs
that not everything that seems to be negative commentary to one is
necessarily that. Sometimes constructive criticism can be perceived
as negative commentary I think. I've studied some psychology at uni
and retain an interest in it. I guess I am wary that homo sapiens as a
class (and including myself as an instance of the class) frequently filter
new data through our existing stereotypes and sometimes, quite
unconsciously, we reject what doesn't seem to fit. From this view I
draw the conclusion that the feedback of others may be a useful way
for me to gain insight into my own biases. Similarly, others, honestly
and criticially open to new sources of information and new ways of
seeing, but still constrained somewhat by the standard psych filters,
can benefit from my perspective.
Sometimes it is our critics that can give us valuable information
about where our messages are failing to get through or are being
misunderstood.
My current approach to things is probably a bit hyper-political
because of what I've been doing over much of the last year as
a lobbyist working with pro-biotech and stem cell industry groups
and patient advocacy groups to try and get the best possible
legislative environment in Australia for stem cell research.
>
> In this case, a successful outcome for categorizing trans-
> humanists inappropriately would be to work harder positive
> memes that provoke intelligent and compassionate acts.
> Hello Pro-Act.
Sorry I'm not familiar with Pro-Act. I think the talking about
positive things and positive developments is a great way to
counterbalance the negative aspects that need to be handled
sometimes. I've been thinking its a bit of a pity that the subject
line atop this post has been getting as much of the bandwidth as
it has. It neither reflects the interests of most of the people on the
list or indeed what is actually within most of the posts. But just this
morning Australian time, I looked at a number of other threads
posted by list members and thought this stuff is great. The quality
of the content is very high. This is NOT a group in danger of being
swamped by negativity in my view. And it is a group able to take
criticism critically and benefit from it. The halcyon days haven't
passed for the ExI list. These are the halcyon days. May they
continue : )
> >Frankly, it has hardly been tested yet in comparison with
> what may be thrown at it by those seeing extropic memes as a
> threat and really going after it.<
> ____________
>
> Extropic memes are not a threat to anyone who is able to accept
> change. Even the most conservative of people are aware that life
> is full of change.
Yes but awareness is not acceptance. People imo fear change
especially when they feel they can't be a part in shaping or directing
it. I think most of the population of the planet feel like that a lot of
the time. Extropians imo and transhumanists and free thinkers
generally are likely to have more of an "internal locus of control"
they are likely to perceive that they can make significant changes to
the world they/we live in. And they are likely to be right. Many
people have more of an "external locus of control". They feel that
change is more something that happens to them. The preception
is self-fulfilling so they too are likely to be right.
> > Certainly there was no threat to ExI from Lyle Burkhead
> in the link I saw. He didn't even associate himself with extropians.<
> ___________
>
> Exactly. He associated himself with trashumanism.
Yes.
> >Still, it is certainly not my list, and others have invested much in
> setting it up and maintaining it. I consider myself to be an extropian
> (as I understand it) and I will help defend the fort if it needs
> defending so long as what is inside remains worth defending. I
> certainly see no immediate danger of that not being the case.<
> __________
>
> Why do you consider the comment of one person, me, as a given
> for the list?
I don't. Nor do I think you do. Sorry if that's the impression I gave.
> Just because I prefer not to discuss one person's ideas
> because I'd rather focus on other things should not warrant any
> concern on your part.
In my experience many people and groups find it exceptionally
difficult to really hear criticism and therefor to benefit from it.
It really is hard work to start organisations and promote lists and
to actually be a positive political force for positive change. The folk
that do it, do it because they love it, they find reward in it. And that
is good (I'm talking generally here not about ExI). But often, and I
have had quite a bit of experience with this, the folk that do most
of the work of maintaining a vehicle or a brand or a forum become
protective of what they have built (again still quite normal, natural
and healthy). But then sometimes the protectiveness goes to far
they censor too much. They fear too much that their much loved
vehicle and all their work will be wasted if others, especially the
"wrong sort" of others, start to use it as a personal platform, and
the others are not courteous or respectful, or they may even be
opportunistic, stupid, blatantly self-serving and exploitative. In my
experience (and drawing also on my interest in psychology and
politics) good organisations, frequently do lose the plot at some
stage, they lose some of their vitality, perhaps morphing into too
much a platform for just one or two peoples views. They start to
go into a downward spiral, that is very hard to check as the very
process of checking can itself foster problems. I think some
others recognize this general organisational phenomenon too.
Now I *am* switching over to talking about ExI, the list and my
perception of your role in it.
I may have projected too much protectiveness onto you as
one who I perceived to be strongly invested in the establishment
and supporting of ExI and this excellent list. I may have mistakenly
thought that you were more anxious and concerned about the
vitality of ExI and this list than you are. If so I am both sorry
and pleased. Sorry if I misprojected and pleased if my concern
was misplaced.
> >If any of the extropian committee (especially) ever sends me a
> please desist or consider post offlist I *will* heed it. But I strongly
> urge against shooting messengers, it is a very easy mistake to
> make even for bright capable folk.<
>
> I have no idea what you are talking about.
I hope the comments above have clarified things a bit.
The purpose of that above comment was for me to let it be known
that I respect the sensitivities of those who have invested much in
setting up and maintaining a group like this. Maybe I'm respecting
sensitivities that are not so much real as imagined :-). But in any case,
if any of the group of people who I perceive are most likely to be
watchful of the health of the list, of its content and its fluctuations -
the committee I presumed, were concerned that my posts were
becoming too negative or being perceived as too negative then I
was giving notice that I would be receptive and respond positively
to any advice about such concerns *if* they arose, though I hoped
they wouldn't.
I was trying to be extremely careful. Quite likely my degree of caution
will strike some as excessive even bizarre. But I've been involved with
groups with good intentions before that had much less vitality, vigor
and relevance. I wanted it known that it was my intention to do no harm.
And, to be honest, political animal that I am, I probably also wanted to
make space for myself to be more critical than I might otherwise get
away with if I had not given those who manage the list and keep a
watchful eye on the extropian "brand" and its use and abuse a means
of reeling me in.
Wow I feel like I'm almost being neurotic. I think its partly that emailing
comes harder to me than talking and being in Oz rather than the US
I am relating to people I have not met and have only representations
of. And I know have only representations of me. I'd love to get to an
EXTRO meet one day.
> Kind regards,
Thank you : ) Accepted and reciprocated.
Brett
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