Re [2]: Extropy in the personal sphere

den Otter (
Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:43:32 +0200

> ----------
Brent Allsop <> wrote in response to
Hagbard Celine's <> question:
> >
> > > What changes in your personal lifestyle have you taken to increase
> > > the amount of extropy therein (changes = mental, physical, social,
> > > etc.)?
> >
> > I'm loving the responses to this question. I hope what I say
> > here isn't to far off of what was being asked for.
> >
> > I was raised in the "LDS" (The Mormons) church. One of their
> > cultural natures is to work very hard to "save" others because of "the
> > worth of souls". "bring, save it be one soul into me, how great shall
> > be your joy with him in the kingdom..."
> >
> > Mormons believe they have the keys to eternal exalted life.
> > If you choose their way you will get it, if not it is choosing death.
> > They believe all are free to choose one or the other and they
> > continually try to convince others to choose their way. The Book of
> > Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:27 says:
> >
> > "they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great
> > Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to
> > the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men
> > might be miserable like unto himself."
> >
> > These philosophies have spilled over into my extropian way of
> > life. In other words, I think that they have things kind of right but
> > just backwards. If one only follows their teachings, doesn't choose
> > to do more than have faith and pray and go to the temple... if one
> > doesn't do the research work required and if one isn't cryonically
> > preserved..., it is choosing death. Since I'd hate to have my friends
> > and family miss the opportunity to make it to eternal life, I take any
> > advantage I can (without being to much of an obnoxious pain), to say
> > things like: "In a thousand years we'll know who is right, who made
> > the right choice, who is alive in a glorious, eternal life, heaven and
> > who is miserable in hell, sheo, or the grave." I try to get as many
> > as possible to not give into the temptings of those that apparently
> > "seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto [themselves]".
> >
> > In other words I'm more or less crying warnings of hellfire
> > and damnation to them for making incorrect choices. I know this is
> > against the usual extropian nature to live, choose, and let others
> > live and choose what they may. But, possibly because of my LDS
> > background, I have troubles with this. I don't want to be the only
> > one of my LDS family and friends that can be "brought back". I think
> > if more extropians took this attitude about getting the critical words
> > of warning out cryonics and extropianism would spread much faster.
> > (Not to mention the corresponding research effort and funding... ever
> > hear about the quantities of LDS owned assets and the amount of works
> > and money that goes into the growing number of temples...?) Many
> > people just aren't yet blessed with enough smarts and must be told
> > what to do with powerful and explicit warnings of how extreme the
> > consequences are. It's sad, believing that their promises of
> > salvation are false, to see so many belief systems like LDS be so
> > successful at preying on such people that so desperately want to be
> > told what to do.
> >
> >
I come from a faintly catholic background, so I can more or less
relate to this. To me transhumanism isn't just a the most rational
choice, but maybe also a sort of substitute for religion (maybe
it is for more people, it has been argued that we all have a "religion
slot" in our mind that needs to be filled). Imo, the transhuman way
is presently the only one that (probably) leads to eternal life and
happiness, the others lead to needless suffering and ultimately
*always* [permanent] death.

IMHO, the ultra strong tolerance meme that's generally associated
with transhumanistic "ideologies" like extropianism is one of it's
weakest points. "Free choice", "free will" etc. are considered sacred, and
this would be fine in a society of rational individuals, but not in a
society where most people are a couple short of eir sixpack. For example,
if your friends and/or relatives don't want to be frozen after death
[assuming you had the power to do it], would you do it anyway [ I sure
would ], or would you let them rot because of your principles?

Reason overrides free choice. Most people are a bit like dumb kids
with a lot of maturing to do. Restricting their freedom in order to
keep them from harm is imo morally perfectly acceptable. They
will thank you later for it, and if not, they can still kill themselves

Many are called, but only few [will] answer...I strongly believe you
are more or less "destined" to become someone
said:"you either feel immediately attracted to it, or you hate it". It's
a very special privilege. This would mean that your warnings (about the
flaws of other ideologies and the consequences: paradise lost) can only
"convince" those who were in fact transhumanists all along.
Real believers connot be convinced, no fact will make them question
their beliefs (be they religious or otherwise). You can only save
them by "force".

Let's assemble the flock by spreading the Word, and forcefully
save some sinners while we're at it. After all, we just *might* be the
future masters of the universe.


Oh, and money is needed, lots of money for the Good Cause...why
aren't y'all getting disgustingly rich with all your knowledge and
connections ??