Re: Transgender marriage

From: Samantha Atkins (
Date: Sat Jan 19 2002 - 04:19:42 MST

Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> cohabitation in Florida. The cops don't have to prove sex, just that they

How often is this still used?

> went to a hotel proves they are guilty as charged. This isn't theoretical,
> this is how cops do sting operations against gays. The solicit someone to

I know of parts of Florida that are *very* gay-friendly. So
is it pockets that do this or selective even in the most
friendly places?

> come to their hotel room, and they don't even have to mention sex.

And they are charged with what exactly? With meeting someone
and inviting them to their room? For all the cops know they
want to continue their chat about art or whatever.

>>Nor does it
>>follow that the cops can know what someone is loitering for
>>necessarily. So just standing around is certainly not illegal.
> This also doesn't matter for Florida law. Mere "loitering" is a crime even
> if they can't prove it is for gay sex, prostitution, drugs, or other
> purposes. You can even be arrested if they catch you not carrying ID in

Many states have anti-lottering laws. Hell, some states have
laws that say a woman is not allowed to appear in public with
less than 7 yards (iirc) of cloth covering her! But that
doesn't mean hardly anyone is in any great danger of being
harassed on the basis of these laws. They are a danger in that
anyone can be harrassed with them whenever the authorities feel
like it. That is a huge danger and utterly alien to what this
country is supposed to be about.

> Florida! There is even a law allowing the police to detain you on
> "suspicion" without ever having to specify suspicion of what. It also is

Well, after the Patriot act, all of us everywhere in the country
are subject to such nonsense and worse whenever desired.

> possible to get arrested for resisting arrest with no other charges. The
> law doesn't have to make sense. Cops routinely fall back to these charges
> if other charges fail. I have seen dismissed drunk-driving cases turn into
> sex-crimes cases because the guy had a date in the car. I have seen
> political activists writing columns for a newsletter get charged with
> conspiracy to incite others to commit illegal acts. I have seen lesbian
> couples have their own children taken away just because they were gay. I

Try being both transsexual and lesbian. Unfortunately, I know
about losing your children, even while being expected to pay
through the nose to take care of them still.

> have seen adoptions reversed when the man admitted have a homosexual affair.
> I have seen people kicked off school boards or barred from public office
> just for being gay. Being gay, having gay sex, or hoping to have gay sex is
> illegal in Florida. Breaking these laws has serious consequences and is
> routinely enforced on a small segment of the population.

Hell, you don't have to be in Florida to be harrassed for being
gay, lesbian, transgendered or in any other way "queer" to the
local constables.

>>You seem to have a pretty strained concept of law.
> This is not some theoretical rant or my strange interpretation of the
> statutes. My partner and I routinely bail gays out of the local jail for
> these ridiculous charges and help them get legal help. I know this sounds
> absurd in modern America, but welcome to my world.

You're right. The law itself is "strained". I thought most of
this wasn't so strong any more but then I live in/near the SF
Bay "gay ghetto" and have for the last 26 years so what would I
know? Even here I have had enough lgbt friends hassled and
physically assaulted by cops and citizens and various legal
proceedings. I have even had an acquantance beaten to death in
the last decade just for being different. So yes, I know it can
  and does happen.

> It is illegal for me to cohabitate with my partner. We could be hauled off
> to jail and registered as sex offenders just for being a gay couple. They
> don't even have to prove sexual contact under Florida law. We had to

So, question, why stay in Florida?

> struggle to buy a house together because it is illegal for us to cohabitate
> in Florida. We had problems getting insurance because of known illegal
> activity in the house. My professional memberships, certifications and

Heck, around here gays are known/expected to pay their bills
better and probably fix up the neighborhood to boot. :) Now,
lesbians, we are another story. :)

> government clearances have all been challenged because of my illegal
> activity. It is a constant battle just to live where I live, live with whom
> I live, work in my chosen profession, and do business with the organizations
> I do. I am not making this stuff up.

I have heard most clearances are not revoked as long as your are
"out" so it can't be used to presure you. Is that true?

I know you aren't making it up. It just seemed like you were
painting the dark side too darkly for today. But I think I was
wrong in that opinion. Thanks for the reminder, even if it is
darn unpleasant to acknowledge.

- samantha

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