From: Robbie Lindauer (robblin@thetip.org)
Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 01:43:55 MDT
> If it is zero sum, there must be a winner and a loser. Are you a loser
> merely because I would not do the welding for no trade whatsoever?
Neither loses or gains. I guess I misunderstood your question.
>> The earth itself has no wealth. Only the people on it have wealth and
>> they have it by virtue of their effort.
>
> Effort? As in what, physical labor? Calories expended? What about
> people who sit in front of a computer all day processing information,
> turning not so valuable information into more valuable information.
...
> Does this not demonstrate that 'effort' as
> directed through technology has no limit to its value?
Each person should be able to determine the value of their own time.
That's what freedom is.
If you say "I'll give you a dollar to play guitar for me for an hour."
I might do it, I might not. Depends on how I feel, if I'm free, etc.
> How is 'addressing
> unstable commodity prices' any different than keeping up "supply and
> demand" theories?
I don't. I don't subscribe to the "commodity" supply and demand
theory. I said so above - value is given by human effort. My
conjecture is that the coffee spilt that way was thusly spilt to
bolster the price in a waning market. This is what happens when the
notional supply and demand are used as cover for global capital and it
shows the underlying contradictions in the notion.
> After all, if what you
>> said above were true, I wouldn't be paying $8.95 for a BLT in Westwood
>
> Why not? If you can make a BLT cheaper, start your own BLT joint.
"Efficient markets" If the theory is that food is becoming more
available with time, it SHOULD follow that it would become less
expensive with time too, right?
Unless, that is, it is the service and effort of BRINGING THE FOOD TO
ME that I'm paying for which far outweighs the value of the underlying
food.
I pay the $8.95 because even though I know I could buy a baby-pig for
$8.95 and raise to a 1000-pound pig for around $100, enough to make
about 5-10,000 BLT's (really hammy-ones), I don't because the trouble
of dealing with it is worth paying for - that's the human effort part.
> Ok, your libertarian descriptions fit me as well, yet I certainly
> wouldn't call myself a 'peacefull anarchist' (how do you propose it
> remain 'peacefull' anarchy, btw?)
I trust people who own big guns to not f-with other people who own big
guns.
> I despise corporate subsidy and the
> general interference of the market by rediculous government intrusion.
Me Too.
> But I would like to hear more of what kind of system you would propose.
(I hope) I'll know paradise when I get there. Until then I'll just
complain :)
> Does your peacefull Anarchist society have property rights? Who
> enforces them?
Me, you, them. If, as you say, there's plenty of food, land and water,
there shouldn't be any problem.
People would have to recognize the value of what they'd achieved to
make it worth keeping.
> Do they have a right to take my provisions?
That's an ethical issue, not a legal one. They have no right to steal
from you, but you SHOULD share with them if you can, that would be "The
right thing to do."
> Who forces the Doctor to treat
> my ailments to achieve 'adequate' health care?
Assuming you've been nice to your doctor, why wouldn't he be nice to
you?
> Especially If I can not
> pay him, and no government exists to coerce him.
He should help you. The Government isn't exactly helping right now.
> Shall my best friend
> just hold a gun to his head?
How about asking nicely, most people are reasonable when asked. If the
doctor knows that he can't extract unreasonable fees for his services,
then he will ask for reasonable fees. If a doctor becomes known as
"That guy who cheats dying people" then his business would dry up
pretty quick I imagine.
> (Oh, right, you said a 'peacefull
> anrachist', I suppose Ill just ask him politely to perform required
> operation)
Sounds good, but I'd expect you to have planned well enough that you
could pay a reasonable fee and/or contracted with some insurer. (Who
in turn would pay because if they didn't you'd be pissed and so would
the rest of their customers.)
> Truthfully, I don't understand how this system could
> possibly exist, unless each and every person in it is immortal,
> perpetually healthy, and always with shelter and food.
Maybe. Maybe not. I say it's worth a try because THIS isn't working.
> Is that so? I guess most communist governements just never got to sit
> around long enough to turn into full anarachies.
It's an empirical question and so I am agnostic about it. The Chinese
government, if it's Communist, has an opportunity to become a
government-less body. I doubt that they will, personally. You may be
more optimistic. Until they, no three-children chinese families. The
Russian Government clearly failed.
I take it that those two examples are the best evidence we have in the
matter outside of small communes.
> How does peaceful anarachy alleviate global poverty? (food, shelter,
> and adequate health care)
By letting people benefit from their own land and labor.
> 'Inadequate'? That's an understatement if I have ever heard one,
> considering it is responsible for 170 million deaths this century.
Right.
> What
> is 'forced alienation of our labor' and what about volunteer labor.
Forced alienation of our labor is TAXATION or other kinds of coerced
(in the broad sense of "essentially forced") extraction of resources
and time.
> I
> also note, we can not exist without labor, we must labor for our food.
> How is that dichotomy settled? Food will not fall from the sky and
> into
> your mouth, and with no government to provide it, where will it come
> from?
I expect a nice little farm might do the trick. On the Kibutz groups
of people come together to build farms that sustain them and then take
turns on it. That's ONE way. Another way is just to farm your own
land. Another way is to provide a sufficiently valuable service that
other people would simply give you food.
I know guitarists that make their livings this way, for instance.
> If I chose to stop working,
> I would lose my house.
Not stop working, we are in agreement that you must produce to provide
for yourself. Try stop paying taxes.
Alienation simply means taking something that was yours and making it
someone else's. Forced alienation is when someone MAKES you do it.
> I have little need for rock
> throwers, but need computer programmers.
People manage to figure out valuable things that other people want.
They don't need governments to show them how to do this. Governments
come in when small groups of people band together and force other
people into submission by violence.
> Agreed, tentatively. But are some governments 'less bad' than others?
> Say, for example, Pol Pot's Cambodia vs. Australia?
Not clear. It may be that the underlying factors which support
Australia also support Pol Pot. I understand that the CIA was funding
Pol Pot's campaign against his people.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_PolPot.html
>> Do I have to want the singularity in order to want to live much
>> longer?
>
> No, but I don't see how any of the ideas you propose would make it
> objectively make it likely that you would live any longer. Though I
> would certainly entertain any evidence.
Number one killer in America for males over 30 (me) - Heart Disease.
Major cause of heart-disease - STRESS. Major cause of stress -
overwork.
Number 2 killer - Cancer. Number 1 cause of cancer - unknown
environmental factors. I personally attribute them to the pollutants
required by modern cities to keep the engines greased.
>>> As Gorby pointed out in the late 80's, Singapore generated
>> more wealth
>>> than the ENTIRE Soviet Union. But it must have been because
>>> it was exploiting the working man, right?
>>
>> Without any doubt.
>>
>
> Did the people of singapore live better lives than the people of the
> soviet union?
Which people?
I hear Gorby had a really, really nice limousine. Maybe there were
more really-really-nice limousines per capita in Singapore than Russia,
I don't know.
Best,
robbie
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