From: matus (matus@matus1976.com)
Date: Wed Aug 20 2003 - 21:53:00 MDT
>> Glad you can admit it. But don't say 'we agree' unless you mean
>> merely you and I, because other members of this list
>obviously do not
>> agree with that statement.
>
>Name one, by name, please.
Jeff Davis, as I have all ready elaborated, said the 'good guys' won in
Vietnam. Note those good guys, for the past 30 years, have been one of
the most oppressive regimes in the world, and killed more people in the
six months following the US abandonment of Indochina then died in the
entire war, and subsequently turned Cambodia and Laos into hell holes as
well.
I am sure there are others who have yet to go on record. Samantha, who
won in Vietnam, the good guys or the bad guys?
>We can debate forever about whether or not the wars fought in
>Indochina were ours to fight, whether they were winnable, etc,
>ect- it's a dead horse
>folks- STOP BEATING IT! I thought the Extropy list was about
>the future, not the past...
Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. There is NOTHING
more anti-extropic than a communist government! As a person who favors
extropian ideals, I would think other extropians should be concerned
about the single most murderous and anti-extropic form of government to
have ever existed on the planet. The Extropy list is about promoting
extropian ideals, not specifically talking only about the future. If
you do not like what I have to say, put me in a kill file, or complain
to the moderators, but do not pretend that events in the past have no
extropic relevance to the future. In case you missed it, this murderous
expansionistic regime tried to take over the world over the past 50
years. There is no extropianism in forced collectivization, starvation,
and poor ignorant peasant farming communities. And currently a good
portion of the world still lives under these entirely unextropic
wretched conditions.
>
>> that Kuwait
>> wasn't a legit country because Saddam didn't recognize it, etc. etc.
>
>That's just ridiculous.
It is ridiculous, but it was said. I was shocked of course, since when
did a succession from a parent country require the moral sanction from
that country? Seems absurd to me, especially when parent country was a
murderous despotic tyrannical regime. But it was said. Perhaps the
Extropy list subscribers are not as clear minded and rational as you
thought they were.
>Alright. I'm going to start constantly posting messages
>stating that the sky is blue and the grass is green.
If you consider the threat of communism equal in concern as people
arguing the sky is not blue, more power to you. Personally, since
communism has killed 170 million people this century, and, as far as I
know, the 'Sky is not blue' cultists have yet to kill, maim, collective,
or oppress *any* its not high on my list of concerns.
>Alright. Damien posted a message reporting on how many people
>are incarcerated in the US. This is a major concern for many
>people here and abroad. Why does America have a higher crime
>rate than the rest of the industrialized world?
Does it have a higher rate? Or are its incarceration rates higher?
Perhaps we just catch more of the bad guys? Perhaps certain stupid
aspects of American culture tend to re-enforce crime waves. This issues
is very complex, though I would be the first to succeed that among the
free, open, west societies the US does have the highest incarceration
rates. I just question the incarceration rate claims from notoriously
oppressive and closed societies, many of the worst of which we have no
data for whatsoever.
>What can we
>do about it? How much of this "crime" is victimless in nature
>(such as drug posession)? How many people are falsely
>imprisoned? How many of the rich and powerful manage to get
>away with crimes and plea bargains while the same offense
>would land your typical young black man or native American in
>prison for years?
[snip various valid complaints about the US]
How many people are executed for speaking out about their government,
rot in solitary confinement for decades, buried in mass graves for being
of a ethnic minority or of an ethnicity simply not in power. Condemned
to lives of hellish poverty because the wealthy free post industrialized
west could care less. I agree with all your criticisms of the US, I
just consider them hardly noteworthy compared to the atrocities of the
rest of the world. The vast majority of the world would DIE to have to
deal with our worst problems, in fact, many people in the world DIE just
trying to have the CHANCE to deal with our worst problems. Do you think
the high incarceration rate of the US is a deterrence for Cuban refugees
setting out in shoddy make shift rafts or crowding 100's of people into
storage containers to try to smuggle themselves in?
And furthermore, as is often ignored, our laws are firmly established
and on the books, arbitrary incarcerations, the norm in despotic
countries and communist ones, are few and far between in the US. As I
said, don't steal, assault, murder, or deal drugs, and you have very
little chance of ending up in Jail in the US.
You can complain about the injustices in the US all you want, and I will
agree with most every one of them. However, comparing those to the
Injustices of people in North Korea or Vietnam, you are not going to get
me very excited about it until those people have our troubles to worry
about.
>
>Last week, our esteemed congressman, who
>has a long history of speeding tickets and accidents, sped
>through a stop sign in his '95 DeVille- and killed a
>motorcyclist.
As a motorcyclist myself, I say that sucks. As an American, I further
say that sucks. As an Extropian, I also say that sucks. I don't see
any disagreement here, these are all egregious injustices. But I ask
you, which sucks more, 300,000 people in mass graves, or a former
attorney general getting off with a light sentence?
>
>There's definitely some hypocrisy in this system.
I certainly agree! But while people are getting their eyes gouged out,
and tongues cut off, and children raped, and babies heads smashed
against trees, beheaded, starved, tortured, etc. intentionally by
governments, I will focus my concerns on those governments. Once their
worse problems are going to jail for smoking pot, then Ill be the
champion of the decriminalize drug use movement.
>Editorial Comment: Replacing a murderous dictator with a
>violent anarchy isn't necessarily progress.
That's true. But replacing it with a progressive western market based
economy is. The result still remains to be seen.
>China's incarcerated population is somewhere between 25 Million and 30
>Million- higher than the entire population of Iraq, imprisoned
>without due process, often for dubious reasons. Yet, while we
>invaded Iraq, we instead support trade deregulation with China
>and hand them our industrial sector on a silver platter. More
>hypocrisy?
>
As Frederick Douglas said, one must do the most they can at that moment.
What do you think would happen if the US sanctioned China? Would China
say 'ah, sure, we'll reform, we've been wanting to anyway'
The only way China will change is through a great deal of time, or if
the Entire post industrialized west, the wealthiest and most militarily
powerful part of the world, which also happens to BE THE MOST FREE!
Stand united against the oppressive, tyrannical, and murderous regimes
of the world. Given the recent events in Iraq, it seems unlikely that
the free, powerful, wealthy, post industrialized west as a whole will
ever give a shit about murderous oppressive regimes and the billions who
suffer under them. By the time they do give a shit, it may be too late
to make a difference.
Michael Dickey
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