From: Brett Paatsch (bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au)
Date: Mon Aug 11 2003 - 00:27:16 MDT
Emlyn O'regan writes:
> The comments below [BP: which I've snipped] prompt
> me to ask some more of my irritating questions, apologies
> in advance.
You questions, seeming genuine, don't irritate me. I'm glad
you ask them.
> It is becoming increasingly unclear to me that what it is to
> be an extropian is the same for every extropian. In fact, I
> think we may hold disjoint sets of values, and disjoint
> definitions, in many cases. ie: We may be using the same
> word, but in fact have no common ground. I am brought
> to this by a long history of reading the list, and in particular
> by the comment below from Rafal, and by Robert's
> assertion that maximising complexity is his guiding
> principle in being an extropian.
I think too much has been made of that one comment
by Rafal, as too much was made of one comment by
Robert.
Consider Einstein and Bohr. When they got together to
talk they were both physicists. What they talked about, what
fired their passions and sparked their conversations was not
the overwhelming majority of things that they agreed on
(which most people of their time may have only considered
a small subset of), what they discussed were the points on
which they disagreed, and sometimes our champions who
we see bestriding the world like intellectual colossus (colossi?)
need a place to play, to make some mistakes and learn and
to be ordinary humans too.
When Eliezer chastises Robert, or Damien teases Rafal
I don't see the good fighting with evil but thinkers who
sometimes get things wrong, and would admit it, wrestling
with the issues of the times. Bohr and Einstein when they
disagreed were only disagreeing about the nature of the
universe (no small thing from one standpoint) but neither
would claim the other was not a *physicist*.
If we aren't finding things to disagree about then we
are not engaging with the challenges of the times and we
become a mutual congratulation society. But none of us
are entirely intellectual and I doubt any of us come
entirely to the ExI list with totally thought out positions.
We come at times, I think, because of the salon thing
Anders and others mentions.
Hey sometimes our friends may fart in the lift and
embarass us a bit (heck the other folks in the lift
might associate the emission with us) but we don't need
to respond by punching them out :-)
Robert is not blowing up millions, Rafal is not executing
drones, both these guys are looking for solutions and
if we want to find they have feet of clay then its not
they that have claimed to be gods. I am glad to live in
a time where there is the technology to converse and
to communicate across oceans with the likes of Robert
and Eliezer and Rafal and Damien. And the list goes
on and on.
>
> So my questions is this:
> 1 - What do you consider to be extropian, or what
> do you believe it is to be an extropian?
I like the extropian principles they are not perfect but
they are very good. I like the concept of extropy as
against entropy. I see no need to carry a card or to
tie myself to an oar. Let others label me. If I want to
save the ship I will row hard anyway voluntarily.
> 2 - Do you consider yourself to be an extropian?
Sort of, but I'm no card carrier. Its the ideas, and
the people I like. Its the travellers headed in the same
direction and making for a more pleasant trip.
> 3 - If not, why not? Do you hold values which you
> believe are in conflict with Extropy? Or is it purely
> for "I'm a tough non-joiner kinda dude(tte)"
> reasons? Or perhaps for PR reasons?
The PR reasons factor for me (I am aware that if I get
into a lift with someone who enjoys farting loudly)
people will judge me by the company I keep.
Sometimes this bothers me more than other times.
I think when I was in primary school my highest aspiration
was to master the art of the ventriloquist fart and project
it in the direction of the most prim and proper teachers
pets. I've outgrown that now for the most part. But I still
like to play.
I am politically aware enough to want to be interpreted
in context and to know that many perhaps even most people
will misunderstand anyway but there is no need to encourage
that. I don't sleep in a tuxedo. One can be serious without
being serious all the time. One can be intelligent without
having to be right or to deliver only verified proofs all the
time. Sometimes its fun to collaborate on works that are
in progress. And many extropian threads are about thoughts
from folks who ideas are works in progress.
Regards,
Brett
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