From: Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Aug 04 2003 - 12:35:29 MDT
I am confused about the context of this post, Phil. Could you please
repost it, quoting what I said that your comments are in reference
to???
--- Phil Osborn <philosborn2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So, states have special "rights" that people somehow
> do not? Well, at least it's a consistent position.
> States define whatever "rights" exist by virtue of
> having more guns than mere citizens. I get that. OK,
> "Rights" then are merely whatever is legal. I.e.,
> Jews had no right to exist in NAZI Germany, just as
> our heroic* drug dealers have no similar "right" to
> exist in the U.S. (or anywhere on Earth, in as much as
> the U.S. has now given itself the "right" to hunt them
> down and kill them anywhere in the universe).
>
> *Hey, if Ms. Lynch can be a hero for passing out and
> being rescued, then a drug dealer, who takes huge
> actual risks to deliver products to eager consumers,
> in spite of armed thugs in uniform expending every
> effort to find and imprison or kill him, certainly
> qualifies... Or maybe only if the drug dealer has a
> cute photogenic face?
>
> So, all we have to have is any ongoing conflict - and
> WHO decides THAT issue - and then we can just dispense
> with all that silly nonsense about juries, due
> process, trials, public tranparency... I guess Hitler
> had it right with that little fire at the Reichstag,
> huh? This is a libertarian position??? libertarianism
> sure has changed from what I thought it was.
>
> Now I can certainly understand that if someone is
> pointing an RPG at you, you don't have to read him or
> her his rights before blowing the sucker away.
> However, the whole point of giving battlefield
> personnel that discretion is that the demands of
> self-preservation require it. Once you have actually
> subdued and captured the person, then other rules
> apply, including due process, trial by jury, etc.
>
> And the need to prevent enemy combattants from taking
> advantage in ways that involve non-combattants
> involuntarilly - as in spies pretending to be
> civilians, or using civilians otherwise as human
> shields - still requires a determination that this has
> in fact been the case. Which means public trial by
> jury, etc.
>
> The discretion to kill or otherwise inflict harm on
> any person is limited by the natural requirements of
> the situation. We all have the natural right to
> defend ourselves from immediate attack. None of us
> has the right to extend that to killing other people
> after they are safely in custody - except in the very
> limited circumstances of a natural battlefield
> emergency, which, again, is justified by immediate
> need.
>
> Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
> Date: Wed Jul 30 2003: .... While ANY conflict is
> ongoing, seized enemy combatants, legal or illegal in
> nature, can be held indefinitely. Disposition under
> courts of law is only REQUIRED when a specific
> conflict has ended, but this ONLY applies to LEGAL
> combatants.
>
> (Me: And so, once again, somehow some military person
> makes a determination that supercedes and nullifies
> all other rights. Just declare that person ILLEGAL
> and then you can do whatever you want to them. Just
> announce that a conflict is ONGOING and you can
> declare anyone ILLEGAL whenever you want.)
>
> ....I am so adamant that illegal combatants should be
> seen as the worst sort of criminal on earth, because
> they seek to destroy the most important bonds of trust
> that maintain the subservience of military to
> civilian.
>
> (Me: my understanding is that we already have cases
> now of American citizens losing their citizenship
> rights BEFORE any trial, just by this same sort of
> declaration - the "American Taliban" being one such
> example.)
>
> (Me: who would have thought that throwing out a couple
> centuries of supposed Constitutional-based liberty
> would be so simple?)
>
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=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
- Gen. John Stark
Blog: Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
Flight sims: http://www.x-plane.org/users/greendragon/
Pro-tech freedom discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exi-freedom
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