Re: On Libertarianism and founding a free state (was Re: Food labels etc)

From: Phil Osborn (philosborn2001@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu Jul 31 2003 - 19:06:14 MDT

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    So, states have special "rights" that people somehow
    do not? Well, at least it's a consistent position.
    States define whatever "rights" exist by virtue of
    having more guns than mere citizens. I get that. OK,
    "Rights" then are merely whatever is legal. I.e.,
    Jews had no right to exist in NAZI Germany, just as
    our heroic* drug dealers have no similar "right" to
    exist in the U.S. (or anywhere on Earth, in as much as
    the U.S. has now given itself the "right" to hunt them
    down and kill them anywhere in the universe).

    *Hey, if Ms. Lynch can be a hero for passing out and
    being rescued, then a drug dealer, who takes huge
    actual risks to deliver products to eager consumers,
    in spite of armed thugs in uniform expending every
    effort to find and imprison or kill him, certainly
    qualifies... Or maybe only if the drug dealer has a
    cute photogenic face?

    So, all we have to have is any ongoing conflict - and
    WHO decides THAT issue - and then we can just dispense
    with all that silly nonsense about juries, due
    process, trials, public tranparency... I guess Hitler
    had it right with that little fire at the Reichstag,
    huh? This is a libertarian position??? libertarianism
    sure has changed from what I thought it was.

    Now I can certainly understand that if someone is
    pointing an RPG at you, you don't have to read him or
    her his rights before blowing the sucker away.
    However, the whole point of giving battlefield
    personnel that discretion is that the demands of
    self-preservation require it. Once you have actually
    subdued and captured the person, then other rules
    apply, including due process, trial by jury, etc.

    And the need to prevent enemy combattants from taking
    advantage in ways that involve non-combattants
    involuntarilly - as in spies pretending to be
    civilians, or using civilians otherwise as human
    shields - still requires a determination that this has
    in fact been the case. Which means public trial by
    jury, etc.

    The discretion to kill or otherwise inflict harm on
    any person is limited by the natural requirements of
    the situation. We all have the natural right to
    defend ourselves from immediate attack. None of us
    has the right to extend that to killing other people
    after they are safely in custody - except in the very
    limited circumstances of a natural battlefield
    emergency, which, again, is justified by immediate
    need.

    Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
    Date: Wed Jul 30 2003: .... While ANY conflict is
    ongoing, seized enemy combatants, legal or illegal in
    nature, can be held indefinitely. Disposition under
    courts of law is only REQUIRED when a specific
    conflict has ended, but this ONLY applies to LEGAL
    combatants.

    (Me: And so, once again, somehow some military person
    makes a determination that supercedes and nullifies
    all other rights. Just declare that person ILLEGAL
    and then you can do whatever you want to them. Just
    announce that a conflict is ONGOING and you can
    declare anyone ILLEGAL whenever you want.)

    ....I am so adamant that illegal combatants should be
    seen as the worst sort of criminal on earth, because
    they seek to destroy the most important bonds of trust
    that maintain the subservience of military to
    civilian.

    (Me: my understanding is that we already have cases
    now of American citizens losing their citizenship
    rights BEFORE any trial, just by this same sort of
    declaration - the "American Taliban" being one such
    example.)

    (Me: who would have thought that throwing out a couple
    centuries of supposed Constitutional-based liberty
    would be so simple?)

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