From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Fri Jul 25 2003 - 01:49:42 MDT
On Friday 25 July 2003 00:23, Lee Corbin wrote:
> Alex writes
>
> > Lee, I respect your opinion
>
> yes, I can tell! ;-) No caps! ;-)
>
> > on this but I believe you're missing an important social dynamic.
> >
> > If I say something truly stupid or despicable and some stranger yells
> > at me, it will be counterproductive on their part.
>
> Do you think that it is objectively determinable what is truly
> stupid and despicable? You make it sound very much as if you
> do.
Do I believe there are standards that should not be violated? Yes, I do.
Therefore when I see those standards violated or proposing doing so for what
appear to be highly suspect reasons I consder that action or proposed action
as despicable. Yes. Whether you consider it fully objective in some
hyper-rational fairyland or not is beside the point.
>
> If you attempt to rephrase that, I predict that you will have
> notable difficulty in trying to mean the same thing. There is
> a reason for that. What you are trying to mean here, is, IMO,
> rather nonsensical.
>
Clearly you do have standards yourself. Clearly you do consider the violation
of those standards wrong. So are you picking at a nit here?
> > My defenses will go up.
> >
> > If I say something truly stupid or despicable and a friend of mine,
> > someone who I respect, mildly tells me that I should reconsider, I may
> > or may not pay it much heed, or realize just how egregious a statement
> > I've made.
>
> Well, the real dynamic is that he perhaps indeed should yell
> at you---because evidently some of his friends are of such
> intolerant dispositions, that his security, safety, privileges,
> or fortune may be impaired if he doesn't learn to keep his
> mouth shut about some things. This is, of course, the true
> unconscious message communicated to those we shout down (or
> try to shout down): Beware---be afraid.
>
I don't think the message to think twice or more before proposing killing 10^8
human beings as a utilitarian value is a particularly bad message to send as
a group. Do you?
> > If I say something truly stupid or despicable and a friend of mine,
> > someone who I respect, reacts with obvious dismay and tells me quite
> > strongly that what I've just said is dangerous, then I will take note.
>
> Yes. Exactly. Some ideas---alas even here---are just to
> dangerous to speak aloud.
>
Dangerous? Where is the danger of simply being told that one is on an
appalling right bender and should get a grip? That is all the responses
amounted to after all. I don't see any terrible danger or intellectual
brutality going on there. Do you? Seriously?
> > If the Emperor has no clothes (and looks to be missing some other major
> > assets), we should not be afraid to say it. In fact, it's our duty ...
>
> We DEFINITELY should not be afraid to say ANYTHING. Especially
> on this list. Good grief.
>
Then we should not be afraid to say that X is an utterly appalling and
repugnant idea and that we are SHOCKED that Y would say such a thing. Aren't
you beating people up for their honest reactions? Why is the floating of the
notion that 10^8 murders might be of benfit something to be protected and
respected in your mind while the horror and repugnance of people on this list
is not?
> But as for "duty", I don't quite agree. Some may feel like not
> taking part in certain debates---and that's okay---so it's not
> quite a duty. But yes, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
> And so you may wish to construe it that way, in which case I
> agree.
Evil triumphs when good people say nothing out of some rather twisted notion
of all things being tolerable.
- samantha
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