RE: free speech on the extrope list( was: Re: Precisions on the Martinot situation)

From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Fri Jul 25 2003 - 00:14:33 MDT

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    Damien writes

    > >See how Damien recently reacted to a suggestion by Robert :-)
    >
    > I'm not anyone's mother. My capital letter bark at Robert

    I am glad I missed that.

    > when he raised nuclear genocide as a possible rational and
    > *morally preferable* option was the revolted reaction of a
    > friend who, out of politeness, did not wish to say publicly
    > what Eliezer said: `Are you autistic?'

    That's a pretty dumb question! Like your probable remarks,
    it does far more to connote a frame of mind (a rather
    deplorable frame of mind IMO) than it does to advance
    rational discussion.

    > This is tricky, because I like Robert, he has been generous in his support
    > of me,

    Hah, hah! So *that's* why it's tricky. But for the personal
    connection, I infer it'd be clear as day to you!

    > But still, here's the analogy that springs to mind: you're all
    > sitting around in the bar, various groups [see that!] conversing
    > or singing at various pitches of intimacy or boisterousness, and
    > someone known to the company comes in and starts spraying one
    > wall, using liquid excrement, with words such as HOW ABOUT
    > LYNCHING ALL THE [NIG]---------?.
    > Do freedom-loving folks smile, grimace, shrug, and turn back to their
    > drinks?

    Yes, probably grimace and ignore her.

    > Do they invite him [Oh, sorry, it's a "he"] over, still
    > reeking, and begin a reasoned discussion about how best
    > to lynch all the -------, some judiciously raising the
    > alternative position that perhaps it might be preferable,
    > all costs and benefits taken into account, *not* to kill
    > all the -------?

    Here is where your miserable analogy falls to the ground
    the most rapidly. That idiot *screaming* in capital letters
    on the walls of the bar resembles *not* Robert's reasoned
    tone, but the certain person *screaming* in capital
    letters at Robert!

    How can you be blind to the obvious analogy?

    > I agree that Robert was not *advising* anyone to murder
    > 10^8 human beings, nor would his advice have any force
    > with those so empowered if he *had* urged that course
    > rather than just raising it for consideration. Not the
    > point.

    Here is a better analogy: you are in a bar having a very
    polite discussion with highly intelligent people (read very
    polite discussion with highly intelligent Extropians on a
    forum) and after a long time, a young black woman says,
    with no white people within earshot (read no North Koreans
    contributing to our discussion) "you know, I have so had it
    with white people that if I had a vial of a killer virus
    that would just wipe them all out, I'd break open that vial!"

    So what would you say to her? Scream at the top of your
    lungs what an evil horrible mass-murdering racist she was?
    Not I! Since she had been so civil, as appalled as I might
    be by the actual *event* (not recommendation --- a distinction
    I have no problem keeping in mind), I would continue in the
    same tone, saying, "what would be accomplished by that?
    think of the millions of *innocent* white people, what
    logical arguments do you have for such an extreme view?,
    do you really think that such a thing would be called for?".

    (And in fact, I did address some remarks to Robert about his
    proposal in that tone. I did not---and NEVER would---attempt
    to make him feel like some kind of pariah.)

    > Damien Broderick
    > [only my opinion; I'm just here for the waters]

    Well, please explain what else it could be besides
    "your opinion". Logically, the alternatives scare
    me---but then, I don't think that you are being
    especially logical.

    Lee



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