From: Robin Hanson (rhanson@gmu.edu)
Date: Thu Jul 10 2003 - 13:42:27 MDT
At 11:28 AM 7/10/2003 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> > There is a key difference between wanting to want and wanting to believe
> > that you want. I hypothesize that people want, and want to want, ignoble
> > things, but that they want others to believe that they want, and want to
> > want, noble things. Therefore they do not want to believe that they want,
> > and want to want, ignoble things.
>
>Please clarify what you believe these "ignoble" things are that you
>hypothesize people "really" want regardless of what they say.
I didn't have specific things in mind, but rather all the things usually
suggested as what people really want, versus what they say they want. If
was going to pick between such things, I'd probably prefer evolutionary
psychology examples of self-deception about motives.
For example, people may want sex outside marriage, but not want to be believed
to want such sex. People may resent their parents, but want to be thought of
as loving their parents. People may want to produce art to gain social
approval,
wealth, mates, etc., but want to be thought of as doing it just for the art.
People may want to advocate positions that make them seem clever and
compassionate, and get them social accepted by the right folks, but want to be
thought of as wanting only to tell the truth. People may want to be unfair
when serving as a neutral judge, but want to thought of as fair. These
examples
should be familiar to everyone; is there anyone here to whom these are "news"?
> > Self-alteration is primarily only at the service of things you want
> > (including things you want to want). So if people really want to be
> > ignoble, then self-alteration will only make them more so.
>
>Why would you put the supposedly distinct things people want above what they
>want to want which presumably include their "higher" or less "ignoble"
>aspirations? Why would self-modification more likely server what you
>believe is the base reality?
I think you misread me. I put "want" and "want to want" on the same side, and
opposed them to "want to believe to want".
>So, does anyone here believe there are authentic journeys of self-discovery
>and real growth?
I did explicitly posit that there are such real journeys, which Damien said
have been called "Dark Night of the Soul".
>If so, what distinquishes such from illusory psuedo-growth?
What distinguishes is obvious. I think you mean to ask how can we tell if we
are really discovering, or only self-deceived into thinking we are. That is
a very hard problem. I discuss it some in: http://hanson.gmu.edu/deceive.pdf.
There is actually a psych self-deception test you can take, which I have
somewhere.
> > >And those who do struggle over decades to learn
> > >the truth about what people want, and who are willing to tell others,
> > > would face largely indifferent or hostile audiences.
> >
> > As seems to be the case with the gruesome experiences of such mystics. Of
> > course what they have to say when they come out the other side filled with
> > bliss (which is probably as self-serving and delusory as normalizing
> > `journey of self-discovery' narratives) also gets a generally hostile
> > reaction, except among devotees.
>
>Again, this seems cynical and self-serving in that it would lead to a notion
>that real self-growth/self-improvment is impossible so why bother. Someone
>who has actually grown is indeed a challenge to others who have not done so.
The notion is not that real self-discovery is impossible, but that it is not
likely to be socially rewarded, and that it may well not really be what you
want.
Robin Hanson rhanson@gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu
Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323
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