From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Thu Jul 10 2003 - 12:38:47 MDT
On Monday 07 July 2003 18:55, Damien Broderick wrote:
> At 05:42 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Robin Hanson wrote:
> >This alternative hypothesis suggests that most literary journeys of
> >self-discovery are really aids to self-delusion, helping people tell
> >themselves comforting stories about themselves.
>
> As usual.
>
So, does anyone here believe there are authentic journeys of self-discovery
and real growth? If so, what distinquishes such from illusory psuedo-growth?
> >Real journeys of
> >self-discovery would largely be dark affairs, wherein mounting evidence
> >forced people to believe ignoble things about themselves that they would
> >rather not tell others.
>
> The classic mystical-tradition term for this is indeed the Dark Night of
> the Soul. Of course the base things such people uncover might not be the
> ones you have in mind, but they are said to feel really, really rotten
> about themselves, nigh unto death.
>
Serious self-examination and attempt to grow requires going through a lot of
internal sheep-dip. It is not at all easy and it begins at the point of
seeing what is really present vs. what we might wish were present. Whether
what is found is shared with others or not is a different question. People
going through this stuff with honesty and courage usually are not into a lot
of pretense with others but also usually don't drag others into the midst of
their struggles.
> >And those who do struggle over decades to learn
> >the truth about what people want, and who are willing to tell others,
> > would face largely indifferent or hostile audiences.
>
> As seems to be the case with the gruesome experiences of such mystics. Of
> course what they have to say when they come out the other side filled with
> bliss (which is probably as self-serving and delusory as normalizing
> `journey of self-discovery' narratives) also gets a generally hostile
> reaction, except among devotees.
>
Again, this seems cynical and self-serving in that it would lead to a notion
that real self-growth/self-improvment is impossible so why bother. Someone
who has actually grown is indeed a challenge to others who have not done so.
I am curious what people here believe about the possibility of real journeys
of self-discovery and change and the place of such in extropic living.
- samantha
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