From: Kevin Freels (megaquark@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jun 26 2003 - 12:47:20 MDT
For those who aren't spiritual, this isn't a big leap. You are the
information, regardless of how it is stored.
For those who are spiritual, I suggest you figure out what a spirit is
composed of and upload that as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jef Allbright" <jef@jefallbright.net>
To: <extropians@extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Cryonics and uploading as leaps of faith? (was Re: Uploaded
Omniscience)
> Brett Paatsch wrote:
> > Lee Corbin writes:
> >
> >> The psychological problem that most people have
> >> against uploading, of course, is that of "being
> >> inside a computer", or of knowing that one is really
> >> just on a silicon chip.
> >
> > Perhaps its because I haven't read enough about it, but,
> > the reservation, I have against uploading, and also
> > cryonics is that I just not convinced that, appearances
> > not withstanding, the me that goes in, will be the me
> > that comes out.
>
> With cryonics, most people are concerned about the uncertainty of the
> technology being able to adequately repair the damage, both pre-existing
age
> and disease-related, and the damage caused by the cryonic processes
itself.
>
> But it appears your concern is of more of a philosophical nature related
to
> the nature of personal identity.
>
> >
> > Perhaps it is a bit different between uploading and
> > cryonics because uploading changes the matter substrate
> > on which one perceives one exists more radically.
>
> I would have *much* more confidence in uploading to a more robust and high
> performance substrate compared to risking the damage of freezing and
> restoring my biological substrate.
>
> >
> > Let's stipulate that the means to do a complete atomic
> > level recreation of all parts of a cryonically preserved
> > person, including the sense of self, and a consistent set
> > of memories from one's early childhood up until the
> > moment one voluntarily consented to undergo a cryonic
> > procedure. Like consenting to a life saving general
> > anaesthetic. Let's assume the nanotech is good enough
> > to rebuild the exact atomic replica of person X.
>
> So you've duplicated the complete physical body, at some moment in time,
to
> the atomic level. To me, that appears to be sufficient, but I realize
many
> persons *feel* and suspect we are more than physical machines and they
> search for that something special in terms of quantum theory, mysticism,
or
> non-materialistic philosophy.
>
> >
> > My current sense is that, to everyone else person X
> > *will* appear to be the *same* person both before
> > and after. Person X prime, (Xprime), will perceive himself
> > to be person X, but it seems to me that neither Xprime's
> > opinion, nor the opinions of other people are fully
> > satisfactory when one puts oneself in the place of person
> > X considering undergoing cryonics or uploading. It seems
> > that person X's predisposition to cryonics or uploading is
> > something of a leap of faith or perhaps the sense of having
> > nothing little to lose.
>
> If X, and all his friends observe that he is the same in all measurable
> ways, then what could be missing?
>
> >
> > How can X know that Xprime is any more than a very
> > complete copy? The same process that reproduced one
> > Xprime from the information in X could also produced
> > multiple copies.
>
> Yes, the idea of multiple copies is outside our experience and threatening
> to our evolved sense of self, and raises some interesting questions of how
> society would deal with their presence, but I don't see anything
paradoxical
> about the concept.
>
> >
> > Let me try and use what seems to be an appropriate
> > analogy. A candle flame, 'energy' can be transferred or
> > spread from one candle (a matter substrate) to another
> > without being extinguished. The flame might also be
> > extinguished on the original substrate and relit. Or with
> > nanotechnology we may rebuilt a candle that, atom by
> > atom, is the same as the original candle and relight it,
> > but the *particular* flame, the *particular* energy flow
> > on the substrate will still have been interrupted. Indeed
> > it will have been snuffed out.
> >
> > It seems to me that "death" may be analogous to the
> > candle flame (i.e. a continuous flow of energy dancing
> > on a matter substrate). Because we eat and exchange
> > atoms throughout our lives the analogy could be
> > extended to say wax is added to the candle whilst the
> > flame continues to burn. But, extinguish the flame, stop
> > the continuous energy flow, and perhaps you extinguish
> > the continuing phenomena, the 'super-consciousness',
> > (to coin a term covering conscious and unconscious
> > processes) that are the subjective experience of life. I
> > guess what I'm positing is that, one's life, one's self,
> > may depends on continuity. Perhaps something
> > important to the identity of a person is lost if the energy
> > flow or 'super-conscious' is interrupted. Actually the
> > consciousness is interrupted sometimes in life but not
> > along with the unconscious so far as I know.
>
>
> People have been completely "brain dead" for significant periods of time
and
> then revived with no loss of personal identity. (However it is open to
> debate whether their soul got bored and departed.)
>
> I'm not aware of anything physical that is truly continuous as you
describe
> it. If you look closely you see that pieces of the universe appear to be
> moving around in interesting patterns. To me, the patterns carry all the
> information, and are all that's really of interest. A subset of those
> patterns is organized in such a way that it thinks it is separate, and
> perceives a "self".
>
> >
> > Following a successful cryonics procedure everyone,
> > including the reconstructed X, Xprime, thinks X has
> > been preserved, this I freely concede. But X the
> > original, is no longer around or in a position to confirm
> > that X the original, X's super-consciousness, X's self,
> > rather than an excellent replication has actually emerged
> > from the process.
> >
> > So, does it finally come down to a "leap of faith" on behalf
> > of the potential cryonaut or the potential upload that
> > *they*, X, will *actually* survive?
>
> But why does it matter? There's no need for a leap of faith if everything
> works as before. Your X-prime would know this intuitively. He would be
the
> same as before, and much more the same person than he was a week ago, or a
> year ago, or 20 years ago.
>
> >
> > Or, and this I would like to be convinced of, are there in
> > fact deeper levels of understanding still available to an
> > inquiring mind, *this* side of the cryonics or upload
> > procedure, perhaps in physics, or perhaps around
> > (or avoiding) the fuzzy phenomenon I've termed the
> > super-conscious, that would allow one to more rationally
> > avoid the sense that the prospective cryonaut or upload
> > are undertaking a one way journey that is in many ways
> > every bit as much a "leap of faith" for them as the "leaps
> > of faith" taken by people of religious viewpoints since
> > time immemorial?
>
> I remember going through similar thoughts in my past, and feeling like I
was
> abandoning the cultural framework I had acquired as a child, and traveling
> into the void. Coming out the other side, with no visible means of
support,
> I felt more liberated, more confident, and free of much excessive baggage.
>
> >
> > - Brett Paatsch
>
>
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