From: matus@matus1976.com
Date: Sat Jun 14 2003 - 17:59:37 MDT
Jeff Davis commented:
>
> Extropes,
>
> --- matus@matus1976.com wrote:
> > Coming from the man who said "the good guys won"
> > about Vietnam. 4 million deaths and 30 million
> enslaved people later, you still think 'the good guys
> won'.
>
> Your "facts" are the invention of your ideology. An
> exaggeration of a fabrication. This is your
> dishonesty which insults others and violates the
> principles of good faith discussion. Lies, like the
> "Hue Massacre" and the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident";
> lies, pure and simple.
Ok, wow. Before addressing the issues that Jeff brings up, I would like to
ask list members two quesitons.
1st, Jeff elaborates on what he feels is the correct interpreation of the
Vietnamese government.
> The truth? Three million deaths caused by the French,
> the Americans, and their respective puppets. No
> "enslavement" by the communists, just a different form
> of government facing the difficult task of rebuilding
> a country savaged by 124 years of foreign
> dictatorships, and made all the more difficult by the
> opposition of the political elite of the world's
> richest and most powerful country. An elite filled
> with hostility by their defeat at the hands of a
> people with the brains, discipline, and courage to pay
> the enormous price required to "refuse" the tyranny of
> foreign dictators.
AND
> All governments have laws for the maintenance of
> social order. Freedom of speech has its limitations.
> I may not cry "fire!" in a crowded theater, nor
> advocate the violent overthrow of the US government.
> Communists (and their subsequent governments), under
> siege by the capitalists from before the ink was dry
> on the "Manifesto", feel the need to protect
> themselves from foreign subversion--
Does anyone else on the list feel that the current communist vietnamese
government is a legitamate one? Note I will not be attacking those who
express this opinion, I am just curious how prevealent this opinion is on
this list. Samantha, do YOU feel the current communist government of
Vietnam is a legitimate one? Does anyone on this list (besides Jeff) feel
as much?
Secondly, Jeff makes various assertions about my debating abilities,
including claiming that many of my 'facts' are inventions of my idealogy, I
am dishonest and insulting, incoherent, I am not qualified to discuss
political topics, undisciplined, lack effort,
responsibility, and skill. In addition, I have no capacity or inclination
to distinguish fact from fantasy, and no logical coherence, and that Jeff
will refrain from responding to me until I get better at 'thinking about
such matters'
With that I mind, I submit humbly to the list the question, do others feel
this is an accurate description of my presence on the list. I would
primarily be interested in hearing from people who generally do not involve
themselves in debate with me, on either side, primarily people who are
impartial observers to the discussions I partake in. If a significant
number of impartial list members feel this to be an accurate description of
me, then I will take note and make an effort to correct my debating
failings.
However, if Jeff is the primary voice asserting this, I will assume that I
am reasonably able to argue my case, present facts justifying my positions,
and generally act in a logical and coherent manner. And furthermore, I will
assume Jeff's comments to be more a reflection on the fact the he is in
ideaological opposition to me, and not an accurate description of reality.
I will, however, attempt to add more quality to my postings.
Please feel free to contact me offlist, however, at the risk of wasting
bandwidth on the mailing list, I would suggest it might be preferrably to
make an on list note, since no one will be required to take my word for the
results.
In fact, in the spirit of Lee Corbins 'working toward a pledge' thread,
perhaps a collective effort at such a rating would be worthwhile. I would
submit voluntarily to hearing constructive criticisms of my debating style,
online presence, and general public perception. Perhaps those more
programming and web savvy than I might put together a poll or list, in which
each extropy mailing list member may submit one vote and rate the behavior
of another member, perhaps using the pledge virtues Lee suggests as
guidelines. This would in no way reflect on the status of the members
presence on the board (eh, mailing list), but instead be used as a mechanism
to improve oneself and oneself's debating ability and, more importantly,
directed effort to uncover the 'truth'
To Jeff, upon the results of my query I offer to respond to you, point by
point, and I will attempt to be as logical and civilized as possible, to
warrant your respect as an intellectual honest human being. Perhaps you
feel I am misinformed (as I may of you) but I hope you do not feel I that I
intentionally supress facts and knowledge I am privy to in representing my
cases.
I would suggest, in fact, that I have a reasonable good track record at
attempting to determine the correct and and accurate depiction of historic
and political events. I submit to those who would comment on my nature the
most significant recent political postings I have done.
RE: Who's the greater threat? (IRAQ sanctions)
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::GQJnPXIX-dDpT-WwdS-e3ca-CTJ1Bm
dnNSJy
RE: Did Saddam Gas the Kurds at Halabja?
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::HWxJfhYY-SUQI-OFU3-cW8r-TxYmUF
9dMBtk
Soviet Invasion of Afghanstan
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::Ij9GSDl_-QWI4-bw00-PBIi-YRplbn
wcaxkE
In the previous three posts, I attempted to analyze the available
information to sufficient depth to present an unbiased and objectively
accurate description of the events. In fact, I have previously presented to
the extropian list an effort to persue this (an empirical and unbiased
historical account) as an official task. Since no information is more
valuable than accurate informtion, and no such resource exists (that I know
of) I thought it a valid and extropic effort. I must note, however, I
recieved no responses to the suggestion. However, the previous three posts
are a superficial attempt on my part to acheive such a goal.
Further posts to judge my qualities on.
IRAQ Reasons for War (was: RE: First Announcement of the Secretary of
PUKE...)
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::IDNfXzxd-FF4v-JiJm-clYd-PQ1CeQ
cJfxVI
Why the left turnabout on Iraqi sanctions?
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::d3ApNmQu-Je0H-Wmgu-Jpoa-P3XWbE
cR412I
RE: "Hysteria, Thy Name is SARS" (On the morality of our involvement in
Vietnam)
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::Rg1rJA8E-ET5A-b3Rl-IG8t-C2hSRm
odFjkK
What is not accounted for in IRAQ
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::GnIebRlt-amdT-GjBF-WnQx-bUMpa3
sTGhhz
RE: War arguments
http://forum.javien.com/XMLmessage.php?id=id::f3tVU2I@-MkNA-cy43-ayd7-N1wvIw
pqTx0L
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