From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Fri Apr 11 2003 - 11:35:43 MDT
matus wrote:
> Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
>
>>matus wrote:
>>
>>>>Arab World Stunned by Baghdad's Fall
>>>>Full article -
>>>>
>>>
>>>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20030410/ap_onstre
>>
>>re_mi_ea/w
>>
>>>ar_arabs&e=2
>>>
>>>"Across the Middle East, people struggled to reconcile images of
>
> celebrating
>
>>>Iraqis with widely held suspicions about the United States' motives."
>>>
>>>Indeed, I am sure some members of this list are stuggling to put a
>
> negative
>
>>>spin on this event as well.
>
>
>>Our motives were not to free the Iraqis. At one time I believe
>>you admitted as much at least indirectly. You have seemed to
>>believe the motive was WMD. We found none. So do the Iraqis
>>dancing in the street say that our motives were other than what
>>they were or that the war was justified? I don't think so.
>
>
> If I did not admit as much, I would freely do so now. At no point in time
> did I believe that freeing the Iraqi people was the US sole or primary
> motivation. Frankly I dont care. You seem really hung up on what the
> motivation is, try judging on actions instead of motivations. We can never
> really truly know what is motivating Bush anyway, or anyone for that matter,
> so all we can really judge people on are actions, NOT motivations. But
> whether bush tossed some chicken bones or weighed the options in depth with
> advisors, the point is we are there and the Iraqi people are / will be free.
> Cant you at least rejoice in the fact that 20 million people who were
> previously living under the horrific oppression of a murderous tyrant are
> now (or soon will be) free?
I am sorry but we keep talking at cross purposes. You seem to
miss my point I probably seem to you to miss yours. I care and
very much what our motivations were and are as that is what will
leat to future actions and is the predictor of them. I also
care because I do not believe the utilitarian viewpoint that if
things work out reasonably well then what we did along the way
was automatically right.
But I brought this up in this circumstance because I am
astonished that a few Iraqis dancing in the street seems to be
enough for some people to drop questions about what we did and
why and what's next and believe it to be evidence that we
obviously did the Right Thing (tm).
The actions you want to judge instead of motivations? The
actions were repellent. We just invaded a foreign country not
at war with us and did so against UN and other international
opinion.
It is much, much too early to claim the Iraqi people will be
free. The most certainly are not free today. They are under
foreign occupation.
I can't rejoice over something I do not yet know to be a better
situation. Sorry.
>
> And yes, I believe a primary motivation was WMD, and the fact that a
> despotic west hating racist tyrant hadem and wanted more and wanted to use
> them.
Then you believe things regardless of evidence.
When you say "We found none" I can only laugh. As others have
> pointed out how silly this statment is, I wont simply repeat them.
No, they did not point out any such thing. If you are going to
be dishonest then this conversation is over.
I will
> repeat something I said to you a while back on this very same point, we all
> ready have found WMD, in the 1994 inspections. Thousands upon thousands of
> warheads, growth media, delivery systems, etc. etc. etc. I believe your
> response to that was 'where did you hear that from' to which I (and I
> believe Mike Lorrey) noted it came from Hans Blixs speech.
No, I don't think we did find those, certainly not today where
it actually counts.
> A significant
> majority of these weapon systems and delivery systems were not accounted for
> in that novel Saddam produced, which meant he still had them.
No, it does not. Where exactly are they? Are they right there
and we still haven't found them?
> I hope from
> now on you will cease to say comments alluding to our lack of ability to
> find WMD, when we all ready found them nearly ten years ago.
We are concerned with today. Is that so bloody difficult for
you to understand? If we found them rather than just hearing
they were there ten years ago then we had inspectors there
before we would have taken care of them, yes? I cannot believe
that you believe this huge stockpile was there, was proved
conclusively to be there and we just let them sit on it for 10
years. I can't believe you believe they have it and that they
did not use so much as one chemical weapon one time during this
occupation of the country.
> We are
> attempting to figure out what happened to them now. This is why Saddam's
> 'cooperation' was completely absurd, he could have simply put everything out
> in a parking lot and said 'here it is'. Yet the media kept parroting the
> whole 'we have yet to find any WMD' line, which as I have tried to make
> clear, is a gross mis-representation, they should have been saying 'We still
> dont know what happened to the missing WMD' Had they been found in the
> first place, the war may have been averted entirely.
>
Is there any point where you will simply concede that there
wasn't any of any significance? What would it take for you to
do that?
- samantha
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