RE: Inability to see the enemy

From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Fri Feb 21 2003 - 23:58:29 MST

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    Cory writes

    > Any good references, or details on [Socrates and the
    > Peloponnesian War]? I didn't study really any
    > ancient Grecian history, but as I recall Socrates
    > didn't write any books, and his followers only
    > documented things in their aftermaths.

    My reference was the book "The Trial of Socrates", by
    I. F. Stone (of all people). 1988. In it his famous
    crime of "corrupting the youth" was, so far as I recall,
    suggesting that the defense of Athens was unimportant.
    But it has been ten years at least since I read that.

    However, I do thank you for your challenge, because now
    with the help of St. Google I find

    http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/747

    which appears to be quite a good review of that book. In
    this review, Stone's motivations are held up to the light,
    and perhaps his conclusions should be questioned.

    Now when I wrote

    > [Cory writes]
    > > > I've never read in a history book of an invaded
    > > > land...and I mean close enough proximity to see,
    > > > where people were holding a peace protest and
    > > > not scrambling for their lives. Am I wrong?
    > >
    > > Yes. Athens in the Peloponnesian War:
    > >
    > > While Spartan forces were marauding the countryside
    > > around Athens, the asshole Socrates and others were
    > > saying everything pro-Sparta that they could think
    > > of. A certain playwright was advocating peace and
    > > disarmament in his theatrical productions.

    I was referring to the following passage in Victor Davis
    Hanson's "Carnage and Culture", p. 434: "The comic playwright
    Aristophanes also wrote several plays---Acharnians, Peace,
    and Lysistrata---that ridicule the endless traffic in
    war charges that the profiteer and the megalomaniac
    are more interested in themselves than in the citizens.
    While a Spartan army marched through the countryside of
    Athens, the Athenian populace watched its own citizens
    denigrate the policy of forced evacuation and continued
    war with Sparta."

    But I do *not* have specific information at hand that
    absolutely links Socrates himself to the anti-war protests,
    and for this I must apologize. I think that I was also
    unconsciously making the usual error of mixing up Plato
    and Socrates because in "Carnage and Culture" on page 433
    there is this passage:

    "Jane Fonda dallied with her nation's enemies, precisely
    as did Athenian rightists who fawned over Sparta in the
    closing months of the Peloponnesian War. Plato, remember,
    in a near treasonous outburst called the great victory at
    Salamis [against the Persians now!] a mistake that had
    made the Athenians worse as a people."

    First, though, I have to speak up for Jane Fonda
    and the other war protestors (!)

    Suppose that Russian armies camped in Mexico and Canada
    were invading the United States, and our own brave soldiers
    were fighting a hopeless, losing battle. I cannot imagine
    Jane Fonda or any of the usual anti-war types under *conditions
    like those that faced Athens* engaging in such outright treason.
    Vietnam, after all, was far away, and her friends and neighbors
    under no direct threat.

    Oh, sure, there'd be a few complete crackpots, or the
    usual vicious sort attempting to gain favor with what
    appeared to be the eventual victor. But what has changed
    our society since the time of Athens? (Note that all the
    anti-war protestors on this list, so far as I can see,
    would still stand up for their country at a moment when
    the survival of their nation in their eyes was truly on
    the line.)

    The Romans changed us. Everyone in the West unconsciously
    has been affected. We have imbued the idea of what a nation
    and a citizen should be from the Romans.

    > > The worst crime of it was that a number of people
    > > were listening to Socrates, and applauding those
    > > productions, and this at a time when Spartan
    > > tyranny was well-known. So next time some loony
    > > leftist seems to be going beyond all reason, just
    > > remember that so did "the wisest of them all".
    >
    > the wisest of all leftists, or the wisest of all
    > humans?

    Many have supposed Socrates to be the wisest of all
    philosophers. And since philosophers are the wisest
    of all humans, ipso facto. ;-)

    > > Alas, some people's emotions, healthy prejudices,
    > > and natural human common sense are simply broken.
    >
    > Well, actually he didn't die until a later trial which
    > even then he could have chosen to flee rather than
    > become an intellectual martyr, so until I find out
    > more of his motives, and the scenario, I can't say for
    > certain that Socrates common sense was really broken.

    Agreed. We have to retry Socrates' case yet again! :-)

    The link above is only a start; there were a number of
    other links that popped up when I googled for "The Trial
    of Socrates". Let us know what you conclude.

    Thanks,
    Lee



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