Re: sex, yet again ~%6 (was Re: ; - )Neanderthal Miracles)

Eugene Leitl (
Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:55:00 +0100 (MET)

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996 wrote:

> (condensed)
> [Eugene: upload sex is obsolete.]
> >
> >I don't think the uploads will be able to afford conventional (simulated
> flesh) sex much longer. If we assume resources to be limited (unless
> computation can be detached from the material carrier and we start
> engineering our designer universes)>
> First of all, who here, assumes that sex, or
> uploaded simulation of, requires a flesh simulation?

Somehow, this silent assumption of physical love-making has crept into my
reasoning, as default... It seems I have underestimated the fraction of the
upload illuminati in here, obviously apologies are due.

> We can understand that "mind" itself can experience
> orgasm, in a 'wet dream' why must the uploads be

Ok, so you're already considering reward centre stimulation,
something resembling these ancient rat autoelectrostimulation
experiments. No flabby flesh physics to simulate, agreed.

But even this version is still obsolete, methinks.

(Btw dreams involve all the body representation systems, just inhibiting
the actual motorics. I think uploads have to forsake such things
relatively soon).

> in flesh form to trade the impulses, electro
> chemical or neuro connected (glandular) versions
> of the pleasant, visual "fireworks " of orgasm or
> pleasureable contact? In this case I wonder if you

No detailed sensoric body maps, just a fuzzy reward glow, eh?

> are missing the point entirely of being "uploaded".

Indeed ;)

> The idea of uploading assumes computational
> abilities which can carry an intelligence, a human
> personality which we can *recognize as us* into an

At least in the beginning. From then on, this version has to
rapidly evolve in a sequence of pseudocontinuum microsteps (and occasional
backtracks, issued by clone history consensus) into something Different.

Orelse join the populous extinction party, before long. Thanks, not me.
Trying to survive is one of those old-fashioned traits I'd like to keep.
Call me squeamish.

> environment. If we do want to retain some human

Will the brave new rules tolerate obsolescent strategies, on the
really long run, I wonder? What one wants, and what one finally gets are
usually not identical. Should digital reality be different?

> elements, it may be neccessary to emulate some
> hormonal action- remember this thread started with
> Rich, who seems to think men are pretty much
> hormone driven creatures; - )

I think actual implementation will rapidly drift away from raw physics,
into something more abstract, something with a yet better map to the
underlying hardware. (Always assuming canonical Dyson computer cluster.
Things beyond we cannot quite parse (yet)).

> How much bandwidth to simulate the impulses of the hypothalamus? In our
> current "WETWARE", it takes up
> only about one three hundredth of the brain.

Uh, so you want to make sex something casual, something which does not
tie up your resources for the AR equivalent of a few 10 ms? Then yes,
this is my idea of upload sex. But then this pesky partner selection...

> >>>_and_ we admit Darwinian evolution in
> (it will be impossible to keep him out, I'm afraid -- notice that this
> automagically introduces some form of death, or do we speak Lamarckian
> evolution here, where mutation leaves the organism altered, but alive-o?),
> I'm afraid Lamarckian evolution finally may
> have it's day in any conscious software that can
> reprogram itself at will.

It won't be Lamarck alone, most likely it will be an amalgam of Darwin
and Lamarck. (Pure Darwin only for the bacteria equivalents, which are
too dumb for autoengineering).

> >we'll wind up having scarce resources, more sooner than later. Some of them
> being time (attention devoted, etc), computation, whatever.
> Not enough bandwidth for VR? I notice there is no talk

AR, not VR. VR is something you can buy even now. Requiring an artifical
reality closely modeled after the pre-upload physical world is a weakness,

> here of what TYPE of upload, dry, semi-soft, wet...

I think only one optimal solution for a given conformation of atoms and
energy flux exists (assuming non-transcendence scenario here, which does
not look too likely assuming the Silence in the Skies). This solution
will precipitate pretty soon, even leaving no corpses of the other TYPEs in
its trail ("Assimilation, the new industry standard" -- Borg Gates).

> In neural activity, things move rather quickly, and
> upload time will be at least as fast, a healthy sexual encounter may be
> considered leasurely and lengthy
> if it takes a second....

(wonder, how long an unhealthy one might take... nah ;)

Yes, but relatively to the rest of the AR, one second lasts centuries.
Sign off now, and login to something utterly incomprehensible just a few
fleeting aeons later.

> >>>Burning computational resources for body dynamics, fakespace renderers,
> etc. might become too costly, once entire system matter has been
> converted into a Dyson shell computer
> (very soon, <<1 kYr), and this
> mind substrate dish populated sufficiently densely (much faster, <<1 Yr).
> You know this to be the only future? How so?

No. This is what I can talk about. Future will be different. Sufficiently
different, to be incomprehensible. But I can't talk about things
incomprehensible. So I either have to shut my trap, or talk about kiddy
stuff. I prefer kiddy stuff.

> Even Moravec doesn't put too much faith in this..
> I think he called Dyson's ideas "new and half baked..."
> these are lovely ideas, but hardly concrete.
> but even if it is so certain in your mind...

Nothing is certain. Moravec's no prophet, btw. He might see farther than
most, but he doesn't see it all. (He'd be god, if he did).

> ... why this attachment to replication and body? dont you enjoy a good
> mindfuck?

Ack, the dreaded word. The one I have so meticulously tried to avoid...

Too late. %&


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