Re: When was the last time an extropian post changed your life?

Michael Lorrey (
Wed, 03 Dec 1997 06:37:18 -0500

Michael M. Butler wrote:
> At 09:14 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >I am rather appalled at the
> >elitist attitude
> May I point out that this is an interpretation, a judgement on your part,
> and not a hard fact?

Duh. As is almost everything else on this list. And, as the old saying
goes, opinions are like bung holes: everyone has them. If everyone has
them, then their market value is squat.

> >some list subscribers are taking with regards to the
> >list. So we have some newbies now and then, so we get spammed once in a
> >while. If I were the powers that be, I'd keep the main list open and
> >have higher level specialized lists for those who don't want to have
> >their in boxes polluted by the tracks of ignorant plebes.
> That might work too. I have no particular problem with that, provided that
> it costs something of value, p front, not necessarily money but something
> of value that must be redeemed, to join the "higher level" lists. PLEAS PAY
> SPECIAL NOTE that "higher level" is again your interpretation, not
> necessarily A Fact.

Ok, how about Specialized lists??? Just so you don't have to admit your
feelings of being holier than thou.

> >Its not the
> >cost that implies the "cult" flavor, its the isolationist attitude.
> BZZZZT. Facts not in evidence.

denial denial denial.

> >Those who don't want to be bothered with helping enlighten newbies to
> >extropianism shouldn't have kept their subscription when the list went
> >public.
> Michael, where do _I_ fit in? Are you telling me, a person who never joined
> until "the list went public", that I should never have joined? This doesn't
> make any sense to me; Help me out here, please.

Once you get tired of it, unsubscribe. If you are tired of participation
in the hubub of the free market of ideas. I took a two month break when
I needed it. I may take another break this winter as ski season gets
underway. Just because you are subscribed does not make you a slave to
the list. If you don't want to hear it, like the proverbial mother, TURN

I joined the list after it went public as well, but was a member of the
transhuman list long before that, and was waiting for a while for
extropians to open up.

> >Here's an interim suggestion: Have a free subscription period, of say 3,
> >6 or 12 months. Then have a subscription rate for further membership to
> >the list.
> Here's a suggestion: Have a list where I can talk to people I trust and
> respect, and other people can listen in. It's no more elitist than a panel
> discussion on TV, and it only costs money if you want to subscribe with
> write-privs to the list. And as I mentioned before, there's CRIT.

You don't see network television as elitist media? EXCUSE ME??? REALITY

> I don't see this as isolationist. Nor any more elitist than a gas station.
> TANSTAAFL. My attention is worth something, AND SO IS YOURS. Get it? :)

What is the current market rate. No, not your personal rate, the MARKET
RATE. Seeing the utter lack of successful pay subscription services on
the net, the value of your attention, on a statistical basis, is
effectively nil.

> >For those that complain about too much noise and too little substance,
> >you should be pushing the list owners to police relevancy/ongoing
> >stupidity more effectively. Subscribers should also police themselves.
> >If you think someone is not on topic, first a) check the FAQ yourself,
> >then b) email the relevant text in the FAQ to the offender.
> Allow me to render a free translation: We should be perfect people, and
> then any system would work.

ad hominem et al....

> >Many people here who are ardent libertarians seem to be rather welfarish
> >in their attitude toward noise/signal on the list.
> I suggest you look to the seeming. I am offering to pay my own way; a
> moment ago you were advocating that the list owners do more "policing".
> There are at least two ironies here.

Your are merely practicing the typical NIBY attitudes that, as a former
resident of Seattle, I saw on a daily and excessive basis on the part of
Californians who, once they moved up north to paradise, were doing their
best to shut the door to keep anyone else from coming in. Pretty

> >If you think someone
> >is an ingnorant nincompoop, use personal email to go into long and
> >sufficient detail to educate the novice as to his or her error.
> That's fine, IF you want to. Feeling obliged, OTOH, seems like
> lightly-veiled, well, does the word "welfarish" ring a bell?

No its a matter of being a proper netizen.

> >THose
> >who are too stubbornly newbie for it to have any effect on usually dig
> >themselves deep enough for some real fun once they get into rude enough
> >territory.
> I don't want to play that game so much any more.

As the star of Starship Stroopers says: A Citizen is a person who makes
the survival of the human race a matter of their personal

> >If you are not taking personal responsibility for fixing up
> >the signal to noise on the list, then its your fault. >
> In your judgement. I believe I am taking personal responsibility by letting
> the world (instead of just Max) know that I approve of the experiment.

Ok you voted. Good.

> >I find the threat
> >of high subscription rates simply the moral equivalent of trade
> >restrictions. Hardly libertarian.
> Au contraire. The tragedy of the commons is being enacted out all around us.

Your motives speak for themselves. You are a) Trying to figure out a way
to limit the level of participation in the list in a manner that
hopefully increases the average intelligence of the list content. b) You
propose to do this by charging people for posting priviledges, which is
tantamount to a tariff on the free exchange of ideas. Your error is that
you wrongly assume that there aren't people who don't mind spending
money for the right to be complete idiots.

Like any trade restriction, and as the list members in long standing
should remember, the last time it was a closed list, with posting by
charge only, traffic dwindled to nil, and the Transhuman mailing list
sprung up which offered the same subject matter at a lower cost:
nothing. It was an interesting exercise in free market economics. Its
too bad nobody, especially those claiming to be economic libertarians,
got the hint.

> >--
> Except in the extropy list, where we are supposed to give without end for
> the good of the list, but it's still "free", but paying money for it is
> sinful. *hunh*???

What is the cost of maintaining a mailing list??? Is this a case where
there is no such thing as excess profit???

As luminaries like Michael Kinsley have learned with Slate, the value of
ideas on the web marketplace is far less than two cents. Slate was
supposed to become a subscription service, but gave up and is still
free. If Max wants to make money on the list, I suggest he use his free
market rights and start using advertising as an income source.

			Michael Lorrey
------------------------------------------------------------	Inventor of the Lorrey Drive
MikeySoft: Graphic Design/Animation/Publishing/Engineering
How many fnords did you see before breakfast today?