Government's war against its citizens

Anton Sherwood (
Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:55:16 -0700

Arjen Kamphuis <> writes
: I'll just give you the left-wing, Dutch pinko view on this stuff and if
: you want to flame me to crisp ... that is your right as a free entity.

Do you think we haven't heard it before?

: Maybe it would be worthwhile to try to break the armrace between a number
: of citizens and American law-enforcement agencies.

It wasn't an arms-race until the government made it one. Compare:

On one side, we have the Weaver family who were well armed but minding
their own business. Nobody has credibly claimed that they were a
threat to the government or anyone else. Certainly they never attacked
any official. On the other side, we have federal agents who blackmailed
Randy Weaver, and when they came to arrest him, *killed his dog* before
anyone knew they were there. (When Weaver's son shot back he was killed,
and never knew who killed him.) Who's the threat?

Then there's Don Scott, a millionaire who lived near Malibu. Government
agencies paid someone to say he saw marijuana growing on Scott's land so
they could seize it. They broke down his door at midnight, without
warning. Scott got out of bed with a gun (a little revolver, I believe)
but without his eyeglasses -- not a smart move, but when you're awakened
by a battering-ram, it's easy to make mistakes. They killed him.
(No dope was found.) Who's the threat?

: If everybody can (and does) own guns, policing becomes dangerous as hell,
: cops want bigger guns and more of them, and they will use them more often.

Well then, let's get rid of the cops. After all, they kill in error
far more often than non-cops do.

In the real world, a number of states recently made it easier for
ordinary people to carry guns, and violent crime *declined*. (Not
including some of the most populous states, so overall U.S. numbers
are still rising.)

: In Holland NOBODY get's to own a gun unless there are special circumstances.
: our murder-rate is about 15 (fifteen!!) times as low as the US (per capita).

Only 15 times? If guns were the problem, the factor ought to be
a lot more than 15, because the rate of gun ownership differs by
more than that.

You also have a less fanatical War On Minority Drugs.
U.S. murder rates declined steadily from the repeal of (alcohol)
Prohibition (1933) until the Sixties; since then, they have risen steeply.

That decline was *not* interrupted by the return of millions of soldiers
with their trophy guns. The subsequent increase was *not* interrupted
by the Gun Control Act of 1968, or any other gun control legislation.

: Now, there could also be other reasons for this but IM(very)HO the
: private ownership of (hundreds?)of millions of handguns, shotguns
: and such has something to do with it. I onze read somewhere that
: between 1965 and 1975 more than 500.000 US citizens where shot in
: the US (10 for every American killed in 'nam).

And even more than that were killed by medical negligence.
Shall we outlaw the practice of medicine?
(Hillary is working on it, but that's another thread)

How many of those half-million were shot by police?
How many were shot by citizens in self-defense?

How many crimes were *prevented* because a citizen demonstrated
the ability to defend himself? Nobody counts those, but they're
estimated at more than a million each year.

: For their sake, please consider a society without (to much) guns
: and a governement that you at least trust a little bit.
: Seems to work out more or less here ...

Tell it to the German Jews. They had no guns
and they trusted their government a little bit.

Are you seriously suggesting that our government would *begin* to
behave decently if we turn in our guns?

(Maybe you can trust your government because it's so much nearer.
Each member of your Parliament's lower house represents about 10^5
people, and lives in the next county; each member of our House of
so-called Representatives represents six times as many, and lives
across the continent. On another hand, the cops who raided my friends
worked for the City.)

: If the US governement is as F*%$#-up as you seem to believe (I woulnd't
: know, being on this side of the atlantic), why not get a new one? Last
: time I heard the US was a democracy.

All the branches of the government are united in their desire to
concentrate as much power as possible in their own hands and protect
themselves from any real reform. For example, the Supreme Court
recently approved arbitrary restrictions on who may run for office,
to protect voters from being "confused" by more than two choices.

Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\*

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within
the system, and too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe