Immigration (was Re: US Science Education Sucks)

From: Tiberius Gracchus (
Date: Sun Aug 26 2001 - 07:29:45 MDT

On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 06:39:12 +0200 (MET DST), you wrote:

>>From: "Randy Smith" <>
>Please humor me and my ignorance of the details involved, I will ask a lot
>of questions in trying to understand the situation.
>>Actually, the immigration of all those mexican peasants does indeed matter
>>to us all, especially those of us who are planning to be frozen if old age
>>aint cured pretty soon. The substantial MAJORITY of immigrants, mexicans or
>>otherwise, are "peasants."
>I would expect a majority, but is it SO marked? I'd expected a lot of
>poor urban dwellers with low-skill job abilities would be a big component
>of immigration.

Most come from two rural provinces in Mexico. Many also come from
other countries in latin america, But it doesn't matter if they come
from the country or the city, or some other country. MOSTLY, they are
uneducated peasants, and they bring an uneducated peasant culture with
them and an uneducated, superstitious peasant brain with them..
Cultures are real; cultures differ; some culture offer this, other
cultures offer that. Often, unsurprisingly, "this" is better than

Say I am cruel or harsh or whatever, but there are choices to be made,
and in order to do so intelligently, one must engage the facts.

> They are probably more aware of the potential benefits of
>going to the US than a peasant, or so I would imagine in my ignorance,
>and extrapolating from what I've seen in the emigration patterns of Argentina
>and neighbouring countries.
>> From my observations, peasants don't run much of
>>a country. Mainly, they live in kleptocracies. I don't want the USA to be a
>>kleptocracy. I doubt cryonics would be legal for the common man in the USA
>>were uneducated peasants to abound in the USA.
>Yes, they live in kleptocracies. But they suffer the abuses, instead of
>benefitting from them. Given that, I can't imagine why would they feel
>inclined to create a kleptocracy in the US. They may lack a lot of
>sophisticated political ideas and practice, but they should be able to
>recognize kleptocracy is a no win game for them. Were they benefitting
>from it, wouldn't they just stay in their countries?

As Lee pointed out, it would not be intended, but would be simply a

I am rather well acquainted with the particulars of the problem we are
discussing, BTW. I live in Texas in a location with a very high influx
of immigrants from mexico, and I grew up along the mexican border. In
fact, in the past, the family business (a sheep ranch) bordered
Mexico, and we have ranched in mexico itself. I speak some spanish,

>Also, how would
>the uneducated peasants keep you from enjoying cryonics? I thought those
>of them that are illegals wouldn't be able to vote or such, and those
>who can, well I just can't see them worrying much about the issue one
>way or another...

Like all peasants, they have lots of kids, and once here in the USA,
often become citizens. They raise their kids, and pass their cultures
onto their kids. Then we have a whole lot of uneducated,
superstitious peasants.

 You may say education is compulsory in the USA, but please see my
posts re education previous to this, plus sending someone to school
does not erase the culture passed onto them by their parents. It
takes generations to change cultures. And some immigrant cultures
change more willingly and rapidly than others. I don't have the time
to go into all the details of the particular case right now....perhaps
others will do so........

 Do you think states in the USA would have allowed cryonics 200 years
ago, when dinosaurs, err, peasants, ruled the land? Quite possibly
not. But that is where we are headed here in the USA.
There are many, many aspects of the problem, and I have only touched
upon those that concern me as a cryonicist. There are of course
advantages to immigration for all US citizens. But advantages must be
weighed against disadvantages. As a cryonicist, those things I have
spoken of are showstoppers.

>>Another thing, no one really invited them, except those that make money from
>>them, and that is really the minority in the USA. YOu say my own ancestors
>>were immigrants, too? That is a non sequitir: I may own a house, and at some
>>point in the past, I did not own that house. Does that make it OK for
>>someone else to move in without my permission?
>Fair enough, it should be your call to keep them out. All I have to say,
>though, is that considering the way things are going in Mexico and Central
>America, you better be prepared to build a really expensive and complex
>border barrier system. I can imagine this might hurt your commerce, though.
>It will probably require you to get quite violent about enforcing things,
>and I would imagine that is going to have all kinds of consequences.

This country is our business, a commercial enterprise, a location
where we citizens make our livings. We are all partners in this
business, and we should run it as such. We also sleep above the
store, so to speak, so there are other concerns, e.g., environmental,
to bear in mind. However, any good business maintains controls and
procedures in order to control the money and other assets.
Accountants are examples of such controls. A business may use a
safe, or even control its funds by placing them in a large, guarded
facility called a bank. Men with guns may guard these funds.
Furthermore, a business may employ other security measures: men with
guns may patrol the premises of the business. In order to maintain
control of the premises and business funds, electronic security
measures, such as smart cards, etc., may be employed. All these
methods are in the arsenal of the business. We, the owners of the USA,
may well employ such methods in the securing of our own assets.

Also, regarding the immigration of educated software professionals,
i.e., HIB's, I myself work with many H1Bs, albeit often remotely via
phone and email etc., so in some way, my own living derives from them.
But I recognize that American citizens would take those jobs were
there no H1Bs.

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