Re: Anarcho-Capitalism > Agoric Democracy

Tony Hollick (
Sat, 18 Apr 98 04:36 BST-1

Michael Lorrey wrote:

>> Even 'saints' would wind up as tyrants under anarcho-capitalism.

> But is that such a bad thing? Having a benevolent tyrant to rule the
> moronic masses would likely be far less problematic than letting the slobs
> rule themselves...since most of those masses don't want the responsibility
> anyways...

I was remembering Acton's dictum about all power tending to corrupt;
and absolute power tending to corrupt absolutely.

Also, I am mindful that many of the greatest (and lesser) atrocities
are carried out by people who believe themselves to be _doing good._
This is why Nazism is still incomprehensible to most people -- the
Nazis thought of themselves as heroes, doing wonderful (albeit
distasteful) things for the world. Like the 'Republicans'...

I'll take the first thousand names in the telephone directory anyday.

>> Individual freedom is an optimum, not an absolute.

> Yes, you get out of it what you put into it. If you are a lazy slob, you
> wind up slaving away for someone else...

Category error: Individual freedom is _not_ an economic system. I
would insistently remind you that 50% of America's small farmers went
broke during the Reagan years; a whole way of life of priceless value
for hosts of families snuffed out by 'agribusiness', buyer cartels and

If you fondly imagine that the USA's economic system rewards hard work
(and the economists do tell us that the economic system is Wertfrei,
remember, and doesn't 'reward' _anything_), ask yourself why, in the
US, there is a near-perfect _inverse ratio_ between how arduous and
unpleasant the work is, and how much you get paid for doing it.

There is much truth in the wry observation that 'most people are too
busy working to make any money.' Or, over here, banker Jim Slater's
observation that: "There are thing-makers; and there money-makers. The
thing-makers don't make any money, and the money-makers don't make any

I've owned and run a design and manufacturing business; and met a
payroll. Believe me -- I know wherof I speak...

> An Absolute Foundation? Of what kind?

ANY kind!!!

> And based on what Doctrine of the sourch of such Rights

ANY basis!

> Y'know, most trust fund babies that I have met have been the most
> spendthrift, lazy, unmotivated, unsuccessfull slobs I have ever known.
> I really don't fear such morons,

Go meet Richard Mellon Scaife... >:-}

There is a near-perfect correlation between the incomes and holdings
of individuals in the US, and the incomes and holdings of their
children. And their childrens' children...

> it's then much easier for active anarcho capitalists like myself to score
> a big profit on a few deals.

Unless you're saying that anarcho-capitalism is a good guide to
profit-making (a thesis contradicted by nearly every anarcho-capitalist
I've ever met, almost none of whom have any money and most of whom have
appalling judgement in financial matters) I simply have no idea what you
mean by that. And consistent Randians would advise talented people to make
as _little_ as possible, so as to withold resources from the looter State.

> Yet, I am not aware of any children here in the US or other highly
> capitalist/mercantilist economies that die from malnutrition, other than
> those who are suffering from such psychological ailments as anorexia.

In 1990 the infant mortality rate in Washington, D.C. was the highest in
the nation. And there is a near-perfect inverse correlation between
family income and and infant mortality rates. There is also the
progressive degeneration of childrens' health due to poor nutrition
leading to secondary illnesses and weakened immune systems.

> Ethiopia, OTOH, that socialist paradise, has lost more people to
> malnutrition in 15 years than are currently alive there today.

Notice that I'm not defending or advocating State Socialism...

Still, it is within our power to save the lives of children in
Ethiopia; we simply choose _not to_, preferring luxury ice-cream,
and jewelled collars for our dogs. Think about that while spooning
down the Haagen-Dazs...

>> Agorism. (n). Horizontalist, 'reticular' or networked system of
>> interacting _equals_. Note that Agorism is a fully-fledged _social_
>> system while Capitalism is an _economic_ system.

> Yet Agorism takes its name from the ancient term for 'the market'. Do
> agorists emphasize the minor social aspects of a community bazaar, while
> blithely ignoring the over-riding economic aspects?

Oh, fer chrissake! Essentialism gone mad -- you're trying to
extrapolate the description from the word itself, when the word is
just a token or 'macro' for the longer description of a networked
or reticular 'horizontally' - based society of equals interacting
as freely as may be possible -- 'cooperative individualism.'

> Any system will wind up with the end that its members deserve. If the
> members of an anarcho-capitalist society refuse to take personal responsibility
> for themselves, then they will wind up in the sort of tyrrany that you
> automatically assume any such society to be.

This is bullshit for any system. It's blatant bullshit for
anarcho-capitalism, where half a dozen rich people of moderate
cleverness can control the entire society by owning key resources.

Suppose the Saudis bought up the entire US road system and made
observance of Islam a condition of use. That OK with you? And don't
give us that 'we can all buy helicopters' guff, purleease... They can
forbid over-flights. How do you deal with it?

> Anarcho Capitalism is not, as a whole, beneficial for the stupid, the
> weak, or the faint of heart.

Or for the sound in mind... >:-}

> It should be noted that the US, which most will agree is the 'most' capitalist
> economy in the world, leads the world in personal per capita giving, in both
> time and money, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of income and
> assets.

I don't think the US is the most 'capitalist' country in the world.
It does have among the world's leading per capita incomes and a
large poulation. @ $8 trillion economy; 265 m people; cf. European
Union with @ $8 trillion economy and 300 m people. And in spite of
the attempts by the Coercive Authoritarians to destroy a free and
decent society in the US, their project has not completely succeeded
thus far.

I do take note that they've made the US the only country in the
civilized, developed world which proposes that workless parents will
be deprived of the means to ensure their own and their childrens'
physical and social survival, starting in just a few years' time.

> Why is it that people living in socialist countries are individually selfish,
> materialistic, and ungenerous as compared to Americans???

Dunno! There are no socialist countries. Name six -- I dare you! >:-}

> Depends on whether YOU deserve it or not. If you respect them and give them a wide
> berth, then you are not likely to become a target, are you? If you were to go on
> making such wild, inflammatory, inaccurate statements about capitalism, individual
> liberty, etc, they might just deem you a threat and WILL nuke you, just for
> preventions sake....

Hey, so these 'freedom-loving' Anarcho-capitalists will _nuke_ me
just for speaking freely and critically concerning their daft
ideas??? That's a great way to convince your intellectual
adversaries and innocent bystanders. "Agree with us or we'll kill
you!" Are there flag decals on all of your car windows? >:-}

I've already had one anarcho-capitalist (David Ramsay Steele)
threaten to murder me, and actually lurch across the table at me to
physically attack me. I let him go back to Chicago to rejoin his
wife... Living in Chicago must be awful... >:-}

"All the Federales say
Could have had him any day;
Only let him get away
Out of kindness, I suppose."

Townes van Zandt, "Poncho & Lefty", sung by the magnificent Emmylou Harris).

> Funny, most people against anarcho-capitalism that I meet tend to be
> agents for World Federalism. Whose New World Order are you for???

Sheesh, you mean Cord Mayer's crowd? He was CIA Station Chief in
London -- had a glass eye he used to calmly remove and polish...

Whose New World Order am I for? Good question...

I must ask Gary North to delineate the differences between 'secular'
John Birch Society worldviews, and the religious variants. Birch was
an atheist as I recall.

I like reading Birch Society literature -- mostly it seems so
sensible and decent -- the sort of people I'd like to know. Then a
little item about the Illuminati creeps in -- but the only actual
Illuminati I can find to read about are Goethe and Schiller, who were
heroes of the European Enlightenment. Most of the 'anti' stuff was
written by Roman Catholic writers opposed to the Continental Masonic
project of separating Church and State, AFAICS.

[ FX: <Cosmic Coincidence Control Center to Hollick>: "That's enough!" ]

/ /\ \

Tony Hollick, LightSmith (LA-Agora Conference) (Agora Home Page, Rainbow Bridge Foundation) (NorthWest Coalition Against Malicious Harrassment)

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