Re: Healthcare (was Re: John in Alaska)

From: Randy Smith (
Date: Wed Jan 23 2002 - 17:37:10 MST

>From: Mike Lorrey <>
>Subject: Re: Healthcare (was Re: John in Alaska)
>Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:49:11 -0500
>Randy Smith wrote:
> >
> > >From: Lee Daniel Crocker <>
> > > > Harvey said:
> > > > > Mike Lorrey said:
> > > > > But at what cost, Harvey? Because medical care costs money, every
> > >dollar
> > > > > spent is x.xx hours of someone's life spent laboring for
>themselves or
> > > > > for the government. Why slave away x hours of your life when you
> > > > > only going to get a fraction of that back in increased life span?
> > > >
> > > > Because I value my lifespan more than money. I want to live longer
> > >keep
> > > > working if I can. Why die early to save a little dough?
> > >
> > >I think you miss the point, Harvey: "work" is, by definition, time
> > >spent in pursuits other than what would be one's first choice of
> > >what to do with that time. If you work for 12 hours to earn enough
> > >to increase your lifespan by only 8 hours, then you haven't really
> > >increased your "life" span at all--just your "work" span. You've
> > >actually lost 4 hours of "life"--life is doing what /you/ want with
> > >your time.
> > >
> >
> > An interesting and thoughful point.
>Thanks, and thanks to Lee for 'splainin' it better.
> >
> > However, how do you explain situations like the WWII Nazi concentration
> > gas chambers, where those inline to be gassed, when their turn came to
> > the dreaded chamber, would grab the person in line behind them, and
> > that person into the gas chamber in their stead. With the armed guards
> > blocking escape, those throwers gained a few seconds of life, but just a
> > seconds, and cringing, tearful, fearful seconds...not exactly quality
> > with the grandkids, was a very common occurrence,
> >
> > Our "visceral" understanding of life is far different than our
> > "philosophical" understanding of life...guess which one I value more...
>Gas chamber episodes of "Kill HIM, not ME!" panic are essentially a very
>instinctual, subconcious response that I very much doubt that many
>people would commit unless they had already been subjected to a few
>years of concentration camp level torture...
>For every such instance of cowardice, I can recite many more of courage
>in the face of death (been there twice already myself) where people save
>other's lives at great risk to their own without a seconds concious
>As for my own life extension plans, I'd rather invest my life savings in
>cryonic suspension than in staving off the 'old timers disease' for a
>year or two. I've just gone through a year of dealing with the
>grandmonsters at the end stage (grandma Burnett died a couple months ago
>after years of light senility and recent hip and arm fractures, and
>grandpa Burnett is still a nearly comatose alzheimers patient here in
>town, and likely will be for several years), and as my grandma Lorrey
>said recently, "If I ever get like that, take me out behind the barn and
>shoot me."
>In my case, shoot me full of suspension fluid.

Didn't you say you were leaving the list? Well, please don't. You make a lot
of sense....more than many others on this list....

Anyway, my theory is that the brain is just like the body in many
respects--the "shrunk shank" of our old age is matched by a greatly
incapacitated brain. Can we say that a old, incapacitated person is the
same person he was at a younger age, in the sense of what makes a person a
"person"? I am not sure we can that say...very old people, many of them,
anyway, are IMO, in some sense, not people at all. I know that sounds
cold....but I was never one to shy away from what I see as the facts.

Yes, I also very much would prefer the chance to be suspended before age
steals personhood from me....but are there any cryonicists who would not say
the same....and who takes this oppurtunity from us? Our own brethren, our
fellow citizens. However, I think that polls show that somewhat over 50% of
all US voters favor legalized is the politicians who would
stop us.

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