Re: We're stuck with each other

From: Louis Newstrom (
Date: Tue Jan 22 2002 - 14:57:25 MST

From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <>

> Not really. With sufficiently robust MNT money to "survive" is not a
> problem. Humans are 100W machines (the brain itself only ~15W.
> Typical solar insolation is ~200-400W per sq. m. Allowing for
> conversion efficiency issues, a human can "survive" on only
> a few sq. m of land.
> I'll state this quite clearly and keep repeating it until people get it.
> With robust MNT "survival" *IS NOT A PROBLEM*.

I don't recognize the term "MNT" so I may be missing your point. However,
just keeping the brain alive would be like "survival" in a jar. Most people
would also want an internet conneciton, and that would cost money.

There is also the problem with maintenance. You don't really expect any
computer left in an unoccupied building to remain running (or even present)
after a few years? You would need security and maintenance people.

> > The first uploads and maintained will probably be expensive.
> Why? It will be expensive to develop the first upload. But once
> making it available to large numbers of people should not take more than
> a few years.

Look at how expensive VCR's and CD's were. Look at how many decades it took
to be available to the public at all, let alone at a reasonable price. Why
do you expect uploading to be any different?

> > There will be cases of people stealing storage nodes so they can
> > delete the previous occupant and upload themselves.
> ...
> you might need 3 Drexlerian nanocomputers per "mind".
> So I don't see any need to postulate a need to steal energy or hardware
> from others unless it turns out that that to properly support a human
> mind you have to drop down to the level of a full molecular dynamics
> simulation at the atomic level.

Why? More than half the people in the US and over 90% of the world can't
even afford a PC-style computer. Why do you think they will be able to
afford 3 Drexlerian nanocomputers?

> > It will cost money to be stored.
> Huh? You have your nanoreplicators build you a space ship and send
> yourself into orbit around the sun.
> It doesn't cost anything other
> than the materials required for the original investment in the
> computronium and space ship. (Obviously space ships for 1 cm^3
> nanocomputers can be pretty small...).

It costs millions to put something into Earth orbit. I don't even know if a
private citizen CAN put something in orbit around the sun. How can you
object to "It will cost money" and then reply "send yourself into orbit
around he sun". That's even more money than maintenance on earth would

> You make money in the virtual world. The real world is so slow and
> behind the times that dealing with it will be pretty undesirable.
> But since you are living off "free" energy, you don't need money
> unless there is a market where you want to buy closed-source
> designs for self-enhancement.

I'd like to know where you get this "free" energy. I could use it now, even
before I upload.

> If you are an uploaded copy on a spaceship orbiting the sun you don't
> really have to worry about whether the laws of some enclave "grant
> you rights". You only have to worry whether some enclave will take
> action to destroy you.

If I could afford to put myself off of the earth, then yes, I wouldn't have
to worry about what earth laws say. Unfortunately, I am not that wealthy

> For "uploading" to really work people are going to have to accept the
> fact that "you" are really in the machine. You would obviously pass
> the Turing Test (as poor as it is).

I agree. However, that definitely will be one of the first hurdles.

Louis Newstrom

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