From: Brett Paatsch (bpaatsch@bigpond.net.au)
Date: Thu Jul 24 2003 - 22:49:31 MDT
Spike writes:
> From: JDP
>
> "If cryonics actually makes sense, then everyone will
> want it, and it will cost too much to the community.
> We better spend this money on living people during
> their normal life."
This imo hits on a *pivotal* strategic political point for
transhumanism generally but perhaps more on that latter.
For now, imo, given the French attitude to 'social health',
it would be a *mistake* to argue that cryonics makes
sense on positive health grounds. (The "health grounds"
issue is a net loser, in that it is more likely that thawing
heads and cadivers from failed business ventures or
voluntary organisations or desparate do-it-yourselfers
are more likely to spread diseases then buried or burnt
ones). The event of the failed cryonic facility in the US
could be brought up. I'd want to have an answer to
that if I was the lawyer perhaps an example of a poorly
managed cemetary and so put the point as being about
management.
The positive social health case will need to address at
some point, but not now, not in France.
<snip>
> Actually I see cryonics as more comparable to the
> 1960s fad for bomb shelters. If I choose to spend
> my money on a shelter or cryonics, either way it is
> my choice. It doesn't cost the community anything,
> it dumps my horded wealth back into the community.
That how I'd see it in the US too. But the media looks
global at cryonics stories. Just about every time an
Aussie gets shipped to a facility in the states it makes
the news here in Australia.
But I think the economic case coupled with the civil
liberties (not the liberties of the dead) but of the
bereaved could be the way to go in France.
Are the French allowed to take out insurance?
Entrepreneur is a French word as has been pointed
out on this list before. Perhaps France is the place
to make cryonics seriously commercial.
If I was in a secular society like France (when the
time was right and in my opinion from a business
standpoint it isn't quite right yet,) I'd do a poll to see
what the level of demand for cryonics services were,
I'd also gather data from a credible polling organisation
on the general level of awareness of cryonics in France
and of peoples perceptions with respect to it.
Armed with that data and the best scientific case I could
find I'd put together a business plan find myself a
management team and go looking for capital for what
would be then just another commercial venture aimed
at satisfying an unmet commercial demand.
> From: Robert J. Bradbury... Someone (spike?)
> should calculate what the LN2 costs would be to
> keep a body frozen in a dewar on an annual basis
> assuming everything were automated...Robert
[Spike]
> LN2 is cheaper than beer, and it doesn't boil off very
> quickly. That part of the cost is probably in the
> noise. The cost is in the rental of the warehouse
> space and the capital cost of the dewar.
What matters (in France and Id argue when cryonics
as a business ventures time has come -which it hasn't
yet) is not costs but comparitive costs.
Its warehouse space vs cemetary space. Dewar costs
verses coffin costs. Etc.
If the body of the deceased is primarily regarded as
a health risk in France if its not buried or cremated then
the answering argument then it needs to be addressed.
Insurance savvy, usiness planning and a general aura of
managerial and commercial competence rather than a
lest just save this particular corpse is likely to be needed
to counter the public health concern.
Maybe frozen head only can be stored more economically
than a full buried body in a cemetary. During life the
potential cryonaut takes out insurance its an economic
thing not a positive public health thing.
Questions I'd be asking is what are the costs of burial
plots in France, how soon do they dig them over or
recycle them. Its comparative cost that matters not
actual cost.
But in this particular case in the situation of Martinot
the very first question, if he was my relative of mine
would be, do I try and get him out of the country
perhaps to the US for storage (is that easier) or do
I try and bring forward the commercialisation of
cryonics (is the time yet right). I suspect the time
is not yet quite right as we cannot yet restore
frozen organs like hearts etc, and there has been no
"Benny the dog" (Vanilla Sky).
The first decision is, Martinot as a special case to
"save" Martinot or Martinot as a symbol or a cause
that's time has come.
BTW. I think cryonics or uploads for the masses
will probably need to be a commercial phenomenon
at some time for transhumanisms time to come.
- Brett
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