From: matus (matus@snet.net)
Date: Tue Mar 25 2003 - 01:43:57 MST
matus
>This further supports Mike's statements, no amount of intelligence and
>perserverence from guerilla tactic anarchists can defeat a massive statist
>invasion with advanced weaponry and overwhelming firepower.
"I did not see any attempt by him or you or others to look at what Dan and I
pointed links to regarding the definition of anarchocapitalism. I only saw
some bizarre references by Mike to who he thinks are 'anarchists'. The
Afghan comment was really the one that got me upset, though"
Your comments on Afghanastan were the focus of my attention. I dont really
know if a anarcho capitalist defense is feasible against a statist
totalatarian invasion, but I found The Private Production of Defense by
Prof. Hans-Hermann Hoppe to be full of compelling arguments (as I said in an
earlier post to Samantha). However, the events in Afghanastan seemed to
superficially support what Mike Lorrey was suggesting.
Honestly, I dont care if such a system could adequately defend itself, since
we aint gonna see one any time soon. Instead I am much more concerned about
the proliferation of terrorist organizations, the expansion of groups that
want nothing less than the destruction of western civilazation, technology,
progress, and freedom, and the reign of murderous oppresive regimes.
Hopefully one day I will feel it necessary to concern myself with the
functional capabilities of an anarcho capitalist system and its capabilities
for defense. However, I note, the number of anarcho-socialists probably
exceeds the number of anarcho-capitalist 10 - 100x.
"If anyone is wondering why more enlightened topics not often-enough make
into broad discussion on extropians, then here is one reason why. For me,
it takes too much energy to talk about that here, fighting against
narrow-minded views and I see little interest with these people to look
into it further and study the sources."
I think at one point in time, each of us has felt we could justifiable say
this about everyone else. In this case I think your assessment of the
Soviet Afghan US situation was a gross oversimplification of what actually
occured there and why, which is why I felt compelled to respond.
"The title of the message is of course, referring to what the Afghan people
called the invasion of the Soviets in 1979. How many millions disappeared?
Nobody knows. By the crudest estimates, some 10 million Afghans by 1986 no
longer existed and a generation of Afghans mostly gone (dead, in prisons, in
refugee camps, escaped to the west). The largest population of refugees in
the 1980s were the Afghan population. The world was very silent during this
time. Please read some history and please talk to some Afghan refugees from
that time. There is no better source than the people who were actually
there."
I could just as easily make the same suggestion to you, and probably feel as
justified about saying it as you do to me. Perhaps my comment was a little
brash, but it is at the very least intellectually dishonest not to
acknolwedge the critical role that the US's assistance played in
Afghanastan. Despite how I may come off on the list, I am not a cold
hearted impassionate callous hate monger. I dearly empathize with the
attrocities that people face at the hands of murderous tyrannical
governments, which is why I am so vocal about telling the correct history of
Vietnam, where millions upon millions of people were enslaved or murdered.
A quick search on the subject reveals
"By 1983, the CIA was purchasing assault rifles, grenade launchers, mines,
and SA-7 light antiaircraft weapons, totaling 10,000 tons, mainly from
China...in 1985, President Ronald Reagan made a secret decision to escalate
covert support to the mujahidin. Soon after, the CIA began to supply an
extensive array of intelligence, military expertise and advanced weapons to
the Muslim rebel forces...Furthermore, Reagan made the decision to equip the
mujahidin with sophisticated U.S.-made Stinger antiaircraft missiles. By
1987, the CIA was sending a steady supply of 65,000 tons of arms to the
mujahidin. In all, the United States provided over $2 billion in weapons
and money to seven Islamic mujahidin factions in the 1980s, making this last
Cold War battle the largest covert action program since World War II"
from - http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/afghanistan-history-pr.cfm
and
"This military aid mostly stemmed from the US, but China, Egypt, Israel, and
Saudi Arabia also funded the anti-Soviet efforts. By 1985, military aid
reached an estimated $500 million, half of which came from the US; in 1986
the number doubled; and the total amount from the US for the years 1980-86
was around $625 million. During the same period, an additional $400 million
from the US went to aid Afghan refugees.[8]"
from - http://www.seattlecentral.org/gedt/docs/afghans.html
Would these Afghan Refugees tell me all this equipement and weaponry was not
used? Btw, I have never come across a Afghan refugee, but if I ever did I
would not miss an oppertunity to hear everything he/she has to say.
A history note:
"The Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979. The Afghans fought them with
little help, surprisingly successively for a large part of that war. Please
look to Soviet sources or talk to Russians for how difficult of a time the
Soviets were having. The U.S weapons to the Afghan fighters were not until
some 7 or 8 years later. We all know how that turned out, don't we?"
As noted above, the invasion took place in 1979, the US was providing 10,000
tons of equipement *by* 1983, a mere 4 years later. But assistance started
nearly immediately, with the US providing through China and Pakistan a much
needed quardaped gastrobot capable of carrying large loads over rough
terrain for great distances with little maintence. The US supplied
thousands of these devices, also known as 'mules' to aide the mujahadeen in
1980.
"Oh yes, it's lovely to have two superpowers using an innocent people for
their political goals."
Yes it is, unfortunately you seem in this statement ambivalent as to who the
oppresive murderous tryannical expansionist regime was that invaded
Afghanstan in the *FIRST* place.
Michael Dickey
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