On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 08:53 AM, Brian D Williams wrote:
> The Palestinians lost their land when they joined the rest of the
> Arab world in attacking Israel the day after it was declared.
> They have continued to miss every opportunity to regain it ever
> since. They have waged a war of terror which continues to this day
> and is the single major stumbling block from reaching a settlement.
Is it really? While I've heard the claim that the Palestinians are
being offered sweetheart deals from Israel I've also heard conflicting
claims that Israel isn't really giving up very much. The most recent
number I heard is that Israel currently controls over 70% of the
original Palestine/Israel territory, when they're supposed to only
control 50%. Areas like the Golan Heights are supposed to be part of
Palestine, but are so overly occupied by imported Ukranians that Israel
refuses to give them up.
I don't claim to know everything about the situation, but what I do know
smacks of unfairness. With the Russians out of the picture, why are we
supporting that unfairness with our financial and military might?
> Both Jordan and Syria occupy former Palestinian land and isn't it
> funny that you never hear boo about it?
Where Jordanian and Syrian governments are in control of the territory,
Muslims aren't treated as second-class citizens. From what I know, Jews
in Israel actually have extra constitutional rights and protections.
Palestinians can freely enter and leave Jordan and Syria, but in Israel
they have to obtain special papers and permits. To me, it's no surprise
that Palestinians consider Israel to be the greatest threat in all this.
> Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see this set right, but the
> Palestinians are every bit as much at fault, if not more so, than
> the Israelis.
See, that's where I'm not so sure. With our media and government so
much under the influence of Jewish media moguls, have we as Americans
been getting a reasonably objective view of the events in Israel and the
Middle East? From my conversations with friends outside of the US
media-sphere, I get the feeling that the Palestinians are much less at
fault than we've been lead to believe.
>> Also, this is more than just about Israel. This is also about
>> continued US support for puppet regimes like in Saudi Arabia and
>> Sure, the US talks a good game about democracy and freedom, but
>> Middle Easterners who would wish to have freedom and democracy in
>> their own countries have to not only battle their own governments,
>> but also the dollars and military of the United States.
> So what right to we have to go around kicking in governments?
Straw man. Who said anything about "kicking in governments"? I'd just
like us to get out of the whole area. Leave Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
Let those governments stabilize and defend themselves. If they want
help in creating secular democracies, then it's probably worth it for us
to give them a hand. Currently, though, I don't understand why we're
supporting the countries that we are.
> Liberals always want to have things both ways.
Oh, man. I certainly hope that you're not calling me a liberal. Them's
fightin' words. I'd characterize myself as a libertarian, or at worst
an atheistic conservative.
>> The Cold War is over. This support of the "lesser of evils" no
>> longer makes the sense that it did a couple of decades ago.
> Which is better, a corrupt government or a fundamentalist one?
Who knows? In this case, the corrupt one was more predisposed to us
because of our past intervention on their behalf, and because they know
that our continued support is required for them to stay in power. Then
again, our occupation of Saudi Arabia is one of the prime reasons why we
just lost over 6,000 people and billions of dollars. Maybe supporting
the fundamentalist one would have been cheaper.
We should just get the hell out of the support business for governments
that are fundamentalist, corrupt, or both.
>> I'd rather see us withdraw from the Middle East completely than
>> continue to be embarrassed about our policies there.
> There are places in the middle east where we are welcome, Kuwait
> for example.
Of course we are. They've gotten filthy rich selling us oil at
collusion-obtained prices (OPEC), yet when they have trouble with their
neighbors, we take care of it for them. A lot of good it did for our
oil prices this past summer when they went along with all of the other
OPEC nations in reducing production.
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