Re: Sovereignty, E.G., Northern Ireland (WAS: Re: Transhumanist Declaration (New and Improved))

Alan Barksdale (
Tue, 14 Apr 98 17:06:10 CDT

I fear it's bad form to reply to oneself, but I thought of two additions to
my comments on cantons below:

I should have made clear that each canton's plebiscite would decide
for that single canton whether it would "belong" to the UK or the
Irish Republic.

As I learned from Daibhi O Croinin's _Early_Medieval_Ireland_
_400-1200_, which Jim Albea kindly lent me, multiple limited
sovereignties operating within the context of an overarching customary
law were distinctive features of pre-feudal Ireland. The kings could
not override private contracts and were subject to laws that could be
changed only by assemblies. A modernized version of that ancient
system, which has similarities to the early Icelandic semi-anarchy
lauded by David Friedman in _The_Machinery_of_Freedom_, could provide
less-bad-than-average government.

> I don't think this discussion is closely related to extropianism, but let me
> try to turn it in that direction.
> I believe that most ancestors of pro-British residents of Northern Ireland
> moved there centuries ago, indeed longer ago than the arrival dates of most
> ancestors of current USA citizens.
> If some Choctaw were to point out to me, a fifth-generation Mississippian and
> eleventh-generation Southron, that his folks were forcibly dispossessed of the
> land beneath our feet and to say that jurisdiction therefore belongs to his
> tribe's government, would Brian say that I should accept? Note that the
> Choctaws, one of the "Five Civilized Tribes", had a well-written constitution
> and a functioning government before the ethnic cleansing that opened
> Mississippi to my folks.
> The idea that jobs currently done by government employees should instead be
> done by private agencies chosen by each individual moves from idealism to
> practicality when one considers the bloodshed that results from insistence
> that every large geographic area should have a single sovereign power.
> I might prefer living under a modernized Choctaw government but would not
> acknowledge a nationalistic assertion of the Choctaw right to rule and would
> consider myself justified in resisting violently any violence employed by a
> hypothetical Choctaw Republican Army.
> Attempting to substitute voluntary, private arrangements for governments is
> preferable to pushing for rule by one government over another. Failing that,
> I favor the cantonments promoted by Loew and Kendall's _South_Africa:_The_
> _Solution_. By that standard, most governmental functions would devolve to
> smaller areas of Northern Ireland--counties perhaps--and cantonal plebiscites
> would determine whether London or Dublin would provide the few governmental
> services that hadn't been devolved.
> > From: "Warrl kyree Tale'sedrin" <>
> >
> > >I see. The IRA wants Northern Ireland partitioned into two
> > >sections, with one section falling under their rule (and,
> > >presumably, passing to the Irish government) and another section
> > >going in some other direction (presumably remaining British)
> > >according to the will of those persons (presumably mostly
> > >Protestants) who live there.
> >
> > >No, I am not talking about "British Forces". I am talking about
> > >PEOPLE. Bartenders, farmers, housewives. Who happen to, for
> > >various reasons, prefer British rule, or at least prefer *not* to
> > >suffer the fate that the IRA would choose for itself.
> >
> > No you do not "see". there will be no further partioning of any
> > kind, the IRA will not be the government, the current republican
> > govt will control ALL of Ireland.
> >
> > The PEOPLE you refer to are descendants of those deliberately
> > settled onto Irish soil by the British Government, to enforce their
> > rule, not unlike the British invasion of Iceland in WW II, they are
> > invaders every bit as much as the soldiers. Unlike the soldiers who
> > do not belong there, they would be free to remain, but under Irish,
> > not British law.
> >
> > There will be no peace until this is so.
> >
> > Brian
> > Member, Extropy Institute
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Governments exploit patriotism by falsely identifying themselves with the
> lands that they claim to rule. A patriot will oppose a government that
> oppresses his homeland. One can be an anarcho-capitalist and love one's
> country, too. -- AFB
> Alan F. Barksdale
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------