Re: New X-humanist forums (regarding Natasha)

From: John M Grigg (
Date: Sat Jun 24 2000 - 16:17:56 MDT


you wrote:
These interactions are rapidly turning me into an
anti-Extropian, I must say. Disappointing, snce I like so many of y'all. Ah well. Where's John Grigg when you need him?

Ok, here I am.

I have found the thread you have developed in some ways very informative, but still largely "making mountains out of molehills." But if it makes us more alert to real anti-semitism than some real good has come of it. For this I am grateful.

But you HAVE been rude to Natasha. She does deserve a very sincere and heartfelt apology from you. It was HIGHLY improper of you to "in jest" conjecture that the author of the accusatory emails was her ex-boyfriend. It made Natasha look very bad and there was no solid cause for it. I looked the other way initially and I regret having done so.

Like anyone, she is concerned about her reputation. Natasha is a very prominent Extropian media personality and does not need false rumors started which could mar her work at advancing transhumanism.

Please try to look at it from her perspective. There are all real people behind the posts you see each day. And they have real feelings and emotions which can be hurt. I understand it works both ways.

The man she used to be with, FM-2030 is one of the founders of transhumanist thought(dating from the '60's) and from all accounts I have heard, a true gentleman. So you hit a nerve with your "jest." Even when a couple is no longer together, they can still think fondly of eachother and so your words hurt extra deep by slamming his reputation also, though they were not directly intented to hurt him. But your words could give others the wrong idea about things.

Natasha wrote:
> I don't know who this guy or gal was. But making a >remark that it was a past romance of mine was quite >rude.

Brian wrote:
That's NOT what I did.
If you're not simply trying to score debating points (badly, I might add), I can only conclude that English -- or, certainly, American English -- is not your native language (your odd assumption that "boyfriend" has to refer to a lover who is boy is the more obvious ex.). If so, please slow down before responding.

"I can only conclude that english-- or, certainly, American English -- is not your native language" is extremely insulting language! Natasha is a mature woman who was simply pointing out how she felt about a term she dislikes. You didn't have to insult her.

Brian wrote:
>> Towards the Good,

Natasha wrote:
> I don't believe this.

Brian replied:
>Then you a petty, blindly tribal, small-minded human >being -- or, at a minimum, are acting like one.
>Towards the Good (with not everyone on board, >unfortunately),


Arghh!! Brian, with language like this you shoot yourself in the foot!! This is extreme rudeness to Natasha! :( Please be much more tactful in the future. You can make your points without lashing out.

Brian wrote:
Max, please check your assumptions, per the Nietzsche ex.

Max wrote:
> If we are to discuss political and economic
> differences among transhumanists, why not take
> the emphasis away from general criticisms and
> instead ask which specific policies and procedures
> will best further our shared trans-humanist
> goals while respecting our personal values?

Brian wrote:
1) I don't accept the relevance of any distinction between personal values and specific policies;
2) I think general criticisms are extremely healthy for any group, especially a new and growing one;
3) I find the questions interesting, and the exploration thereof extremely illuminating; and
4) I think general criticisms -- if they are received open-mindedly -- are likely to have an extremely beneficial effect precisely on the formation of policies and procedures.

you continue:
I'm disappointed that you've responded in such an uncharitable way to my criticisms (though I can blame myself, partly, for setting the tone initially, corrected though the content shortly thereafter was). But I know very few people who respond to criticism well (these few don't include myself).

I agree with your four points, but you have sabatoged your own inquiry into these areas by your sadly rude behavior toward Natasha. I was rooting for you and this is what happens?

Things did initially start off on the wrong foot and so the proper tone was never there for this and so people responding to you went into a very defensive posture. But Brian, exacerbating things did not help any! Please apologize sincerely to Natasha and try to keep things on track. I honestly believe this list needs your intellect and curiousity, but only if you do not tear others down.


John Grigg

Send FREE Greetings for Father's Day--or any day!
Click here:

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jul 27 2000 - 14:14:17 MDT