GUNS: AW: crime in big cities and Europe

From: Brian D Williams (
Date: Thu Jun 22 2000 - 08:29:41 MDT

From: (Karsten Baender)

>Anyway, this discussion might prove quite valuable for me, as we
>have a hot discussion on this at University. In Germany, the
>Anti-Gun faction is very strong and believes in the theory that no
>guns results in no gun-related crimes. I tried pointing out
>different but it seems that this is quite a "belief" rather than
>something rational. As a matter of fact, I am neither pro-gun nor
>anti-gun, because I do not have enough information to decide on
>this. One of the key arguments that struck me was the fact, that
>it is usually non-libertarian countries who forbid guns. The
>Communists and the Nazi are but two excellent examples of
>political systems who had a great interest in disarming their

In this country we call them democrats.

>Though I have a list of the crimes per state and per city (for the
>bigger ones) I lack a corresponding list with the gun control laws
>so I could do this comparison. But I'm sure something like that
>can be found on the net. It is indeed a big problem of comparing
>the two continents. Anyway, the social differences are big and so
>I doubt that we would get to good results using this method. But
>as I would like to present this to my course, could you perhaps
>give me your source of data or a hint where I can find facts to
>prove your theory?

You might want to start with Chicago. Handguns are completely
illegal here (unless your a member of the city council)and have
been since 1982, yet there are 1-3 murders a day here, not counting
other types of crime commited with handguns. The surrounding
suburbs where handgun ownership is legal and the gunshops are
actually located have no such problems.

Illinois requires a license to own a handgun (picture I.D based
FOID card) and we have 1 day waiting periods for longguns, 3 days
for handguns, that is if you pass the instacheck system.

May I suggest for more info.

>Well, there's a word: I trust only in the statistics I have
>falsified myself. I have studied political economics before
>switching to law, and my statistics teacher began his second
>course with the book "How to lie with statistics". It was very,
>very interesting to see how this can work. As most people do not
>understand this, they put a blind trust in anything that is
>shown with numbers.

We don't have a problem with the truth, the other side does.


Extropy Institute,
Adler Planetarium
Life Extension Foundation,
National Rifle Association,, 1.800.672.3888
Mars Society,
Ameritech Data Center Chicago, IL, Local 134 I.B.E.W

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jul 27 2000 - 14:14:02 MDT