Re: A (Useful?) Simplification
From: Joe Dees (joedees@addall.com)
Date: Sat Jan 05 2002 - 02:13:21 MST
('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:25:29 +0000
> Re: A (Useful?) Simplification Geraint Rees <g.rees@fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk> extropians <extropians@extropy.org>Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org
>
>On 1/3/02 11:12 AM, "Joe Dees" <joedees@addall.com> wrote:
>
>> understanding). I submit that we understand the fifteen all too well, by both
>> their actions and their words.
>
>In the context of this artificially constructed situation, sure.
>
>> Those who do not wish to participate in option 1 are by default adopting
>> another option; most will probably adopt option 3. Since the 15 represent all
>> Muslims (1 billion out of six), presumably most of them will adopt it also,
>> regardless of their sympathies. They, of course, would not be either hunters
>> or hunted.
>
>Now you're moving out of the artificial situation and linking it with the
>real world. Here the bias is clear; the 15 inhabitants of the artifical
>world who have taken a vow to destroy the other 85 are identified as 'all
>Muslims'. This is clearly (in the real world) incorrect.
>
true; some are fundamentalists pledging allegiance to other patriarchal monotheisms, such as Judaism (very few) or Christianity (quite a few more), but the lion's share are Islamofascists. Simple real world fact.
>
>> You need to precisely specify the nature of the bias, rather than simply
>> proclaiming it in boo-hooray fashion.
>
>Sure. You have constructed an artificial situation with a limited
>distribution of individuals with highly artificial opinions and behaviours
>to illustrate your personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that. The bias lies
>in your limited selection though, because when you link it to the real world
>(as you have just done), it fails to capture the full spectrum of actual
>real-world behaviours, and so may lead to erroneous conclusions.
>
>I proposed the model as a place to start; I am all in favor of elaboration and improvement of it as long as that does not complexify it to the point that the map is indistinguishable from the territory. in other words, I would like to see factors that make a difference included and factors that do not make a difference excluded, and am quite open to a list debate on whather a particular factore does or does not make such a difference.
>
>For example, you have stated that the 15 (who in the artificial world have
>'sworn fealty to a murderous Thugee ideology, and the only people they will
>not kill are their own') in the real world 'represent all Muslims'. This is
>factually wrong.
>
It is not wrong if all Muslims lived their own Koran to the literal letter. It ts true that most do not, but the facts that the Koran separates the world into Dar-el-Islam (the world of the believers) and Dar-el-Harb (the world of war), that there will only be peace when only Dar-el-Islam exists, and that it is the believer's religious duty to wage war on Dar-el-Harb until it no longer exists, are factually indisputable.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Geraint
>
Likewise,
>
Joe
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: Fri Nov 01 2002 - 13:37:32 MST