From: Terry W. Colvin (fortean1@mindspring.com)
Date: Wed Sep 03 2003 - 19:39:58 MDT
Moore alters "Bowling" DVD in response to criticism (9/2)
By < mailto:brendan@spinsanity.org > Brendan Nyhan
In the newly-released DVD version of his Academy Award-winning documentary
"Bowling for Columbine," filmmaker Michael Moore has altered a caption that
he fictitiously inserted into a 1988 Bush-Quayle campaign commercial -- one
of a number of misstatements and deceptive arguments
<http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html>we criticized when the
film was released last year. Ironically, on the same day the DVD was
released, Moore <http://stacks.msnbc.com:80/news/955443.asp>issued a libel
threat against his critics on MSNBC's "Buchanan & Press," saying, "Every
fact in the film is true. Absolutely every fact in the film is true. And
anybody who says otherwise is committing an act of libel."
While we were among the first to call Moore on the inaccuracies in his
film, most notably the alteration of the Bush-Quayle ad and his misleading
presentation of US aid to Afghanistan in a timeline sequence, we were far
from the only ones. Dan Lyons of Forbes Magazine
<http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2002_11_24_archive.html#85712328>also
revealed several important lies or distortions, including the fact that the
scene during which Moore receives a gun at a bank was staged. And David
Hardy, an Arizona lawyer specializing in gun issues who has worked for the
National Rifle Association, has
<http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html>compiled a voluminous
list of allegations, including Moore's
<http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html>heavy and misleading
editing of NRA President Charlton Heston's
<http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=16127>speech in
Denver after the Columbine massacre.
Full article at
http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2003_08_31_archive.html#1062477905999081
Scott Peterson
-------------------------
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 18:06, Eva Durant wrote:
> I reserve judgement until I see both sides of
> the argument. Most of what he said
> needed to be said and was right even if he
> got carried away maybe, which would be
> wrong.
I saw "Bowling" after reading some of the criticism especially the
Spinsanity articles. The movie is flawed and Moore does take some
extreme liberties with the truth which I admit he should be called to
account for.
But as confused as the movie can be regarding some of the issues, Moore
asks some damn good questions and even with faults is far better than a
thousand Ann Coulters.
Shaun
-----------------------
Unfortunately, Moore sets his own cause back by using questionable
tactics and manipulating the information. The points he makes may
be valuable, but by re-arranging events and adding content that
was not in the original material he criticizes, he makes it very
easy for those he opposes to dismiss him. It also makes those on
the fence (the most important part of the audience, in my opinion)
doubt the veracity of everything in his movies, no matter how true.
The best tactic, I think, is to be scrupulous about the facts,
so that your points are unassailable. To do otherwise is to
invite failure.
--John Hazelton
California, USA
------------------------
Wednesday, September 3, 2003, 5:03:16 PM, Andrew wrote:
AR> Then again, those who dump on Moore generally don't hate him for
AR> what he distorts, but for what he gets exactly right...
Actually, there are some who are very pleased that what he gets right
is getting presented, but hate the fact that his playing
fast-and-loose with some facts casts a pall over everything he does.
If he's caught fiddling timelines or repeating already-debunked
stories, why should anyone think the rest of his stuff is credible?
On the other hand, one of the things he got blasted for with "Stupid
White Men" is repeating the "Bush let bin Laden's family fly out of
the US right after Sept 11" story -- and just yesterday, the
Edinburgh Evening News has quoted former White House
counter-terrorism tzar Richard Clarke as saying that Bush did indeed
authorize the flight of about 140 Saudis, including bin Laden family
members, from the US.
http://www.edinburghnews.com/index.cfm?id=971322003
-- James H.G. Redekop --------------------------- <<On the other hand, one of the things he got blasted for with "Stupid White Men" is repeating the "Bush let bin Laden's family fly out of the US right after Sept 11" story -- and just yesterday, the Edinburgh Evening News has quoted former White House counter-terrorism tzar Richard Clarke as saying that Bush did indeed authorize the flight of about 140 Saudis, including bin Laden family members, from the US.>> But the issue Moore was raising wasn't simply that the government allowed bin Laden family members to leave the USA (that fact was never shocking news, as it was reported in major newspapers within days of its occurrence), but specifically that they left the country "two days" after the attacks on a "secret flight" while all other air traffic was grounded, that they had valuable information to impart about bin Laden's whereabouts, and that they were shuttled out of the country over the objections of the FBI, who had no chance to question them before they were whisked away. None of those specifics was true: they didn't leave the country until after normal air travel resumed (although some of them were rounded up and ferried to central departure points by airplane while the ban on general air travel was still in effect), they were mostly college students who had never had any contact whatsoever with Osama bin Laden (the bin Laden family is *huge*, and most of them were distant relatives who were mere toddlers when Osama left Saudi Arabia for good and was disowned by his family and the Saudi government), and their departure was organized and supervised by the FBI. -------------------------------- John Hazelton wrote: > Unfortunately, Moore sets his own cause back by using questionable > tactics and manipulating the information. I don't know, seems to have worked for the current administration....and Anne Coulter and Fox News and etc. Speaking of which, just finished Al Franken's latest book - largely about exposing the lies of those above. Seemed like a reasonable book to me, but who knows, maybe he distorted the facts just as bad as the others did. About Moore, the main point of the movie - asserting that gun violence in the US is much much worse than gun violence in Canada - seems to be beyond question. You can question why it might be so and disagree with his conclusions, but I haven't heard anyone question his primary assertion. --Craig Clayton ----------------------- > About Moore, the main point of the movie - asserting that gun violence > in the US is much much worse than gun violence in Canada - seems to be > beyond question. You can question why it might be so and disagree with > his conclusions, but I haven't heard anyone question his primary > assertion. In a recent interview on (the U.S.) 60 Minutes, Moore pointed out that he shows people for what they are. For example, Moore didn't arrange for Charlton Heston to blame violence in the U.S. on being a mixed race nation. That's something that Charlton did on his own. On the other hand, I have not seen Bowling yet. Nor have I followed the criticism trail closely. So, I'm not making a definitive statement here, just adding a point. Then again, one of the things that impressed me about Roger & Me was how literal it was. I don't recall Moore elucidating beyond what was shown on screen, and every point he made was backed up with documentary evidence. As I recall. MWJPowers ------------------------- On Thursday, Sep 4, 2003, at 08:25 Australia/Sydney, Craig Clayton wrote: > > About Moore, the main point of the movie - asserting that gun violence > in the US is much much worse than gun violence in Canada - seems to be > beyond question. You can question why it might be so and disagree with > his conclusions, but I haven't heard anyone question his primary > assertion. > > --Craig Clayton > Yes, but It's a bit like saying that, by and large, the US is south of Canada. It's not as though his "primary assertion" is a matter that requires much intellect to work out and it is hardly an act of great courage to state the bleeding obvious. Like Moore's idiotic statement that set this thread off, "All the facts are true". Well duh! Thank you Professor Einstein. The point about demagogues like Moore (or David Irving as another example) is that they get on to an issue that a lot of people would LIKE to believe, sprinkle a few facts around, invent a few more, add non sequiturs to taste and then massage the mix until it shows whatever conclusion they want. Bingo! They now have lots of acolytes who think they are the bee's knees. Next, arrange for someone to attack them so they can don the mantle of persecuted genius. It helps sell books and it must do the ego no end of good, but it doesn't advance the sum of human knowledge by much. Barry Williams the Skeptic of Oz --------------------------- Barry Williams wrote: >Yes, but It's a bit like saying that, by and large, the US is south of >Canada. It's not as though his "primary assertion" is a matter that >requires much intellect to work out and it is hardly an act of great >courage to state the bleeding obvious. Like Moore's idiotic statement >that set this thread off, "All the facts are true". Well duh! Thank >you Professor Einstein. You're making Moore's point for him. Of course anybody can look at the statistics and see that there's a huge disparity in gun violence between Canada and America...and yet no one talks about it, let alone have a cogent idea of why the disparity exists. His movie (have you seen it?) poses the question of "why?" and then looks at different elements of the two cultures. Maybe some people don't like his "conclusions" but I didn't see much in the way of conclusions myself. --Craig Clayton -- “Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress.” Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1@msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Vietnam veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]
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