RE: Energy shortage

From: Adrian Tymes (wingcat@pacbell.net)
Date: Tue Aug 26 2003 - 00:55:23 MDT

  • Next message: Robert J. Bradbury: "RE: Energy shortage"

    --- Emlyn O'regan <oregan.emlyn@healthsolve.com.au>
    wrote:
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Adrian Tymes [mailto:wingcat@pacbell.net]
    > >
    > > Or more simply: bluntly stating that wind and
    > solar
    > > can not, under any conditions, "replace even a
    > portion
    > > of hydrocarbon energy" - despite the fact that
    > they
    > > quite evidently have provided power that, had
    > these
    > > technologies never been invented, would come from
    > > other sources, presumably including hydrocarbon
    > > energy.
    >
    > I think he meant a significant portion. I don't know
    > enough to comment on
    > this.

    Think theoretical. He didn't give limitations.
    Theoretically, it's possible to replace it all, and
    all is a significant portion. Practically...well, it
    mainly delves down to factors of economics, but it's
    not impossible per se.

    > Nice pipe dream!

    Thanks. I try to dream big, of ways that help
    everyone. ^_^

    > The biggest hole I always see in energy network
    > setups is the lack of
    > facility for efficient storage of power generated in
    > non-peak periods. I
    > suspect that's because no such facility exists.
    > Imagine if it did, though...
    > solar power, for instance, becomes far more viable
    > if you can actually store
    > it usefully for use during the night.

    <raises hand> About half the cost of my solar
    system, was for batteries designed to outlast the
    3-hour blackouts we were experiencing.

    > I found some nice info about Flywheel energy storage
    > here...
    > http://rpm2.8k.com/basics.htm
    > and here
    >
    http://www.asi.org/adb/04/03/03/flywheel-energy-storage.html
    >
    > It leaves me wondering about massive flywheel arrays
    > the size of
    > conventional power plants, run up to speed off peak,
    > and drawn from during
    > peak times. Is this an entirely impractical notion?

    Not really, but the power generation companies have
    thus far found it more economical to simply build
    additional generation capacity. That may be simply
    because they are more experienced at power generation,
    though. A power storage facility would seem to be
    pretty darn simple to operate, and to make a profit
    from in variable-rate situations: buy power when
    there's a lot of it (so it's cheap), sell power when
    it's needed (so it's not so cheap). I wonder what the
    rate of return on capital investment would be? I also
    wonder what the ultimate limit would be (on a given
    day, one likely could not sell more than the
    difference between minimum and maximum energy usage),
    and if this alone would make such storage economically
    unviable.

    > I imagine the tensile
    > strength at the rim would have to be phenomenal for
    > a fast spinning 3
    > story-high flywheel. Also, imagine one of those
    > babies breaking loose!

    So build banks and banks of smaller ones. Safer,
    cheaper to get started with, easier to expand capacity
    as money allows.



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