From: Matt Welland (matt@essentialgoods.com)
Date: Sat Aug 23 2003 - 20:10:38 MDT
This thread strikes an interesting cord for me. In my opinion one of the
unaddressed (and unintended) consequences of unbridled capitalism(*) is that
over time natural resources, i.e. land, slowly ends up in the hands of a few.
Carried to its inevitable consequence all the land is owned by a few very
rich people who literally can deny life to the remaining population. For an
in-depth exploration of one way to solve this pop over to www.henrygeorge.org
and do some reading.
(*) I'm not so good at economic terms but what I mean by capitalism is a
system where ownership of capital (i.e. land etc.) is fundamental to the
economic system.
On Saturday 23 August 2003 11:07 am, randy wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:44:02 -0700, you wrote
>
> >On Friday, August 22, 2003, at 07:25 PM, Spike wrote:
> >> Depends on what you mean by the term "support". If
> >> one is satisfied with the standard of living they
> >> had "then," one minimum salary is way more than sufficient
> >> to make it happen.
> >
> >Minimum wage is below subsistence levels for families with children.
>
> And it is just barely subsistence in large metro areas for just one
> person.
>
> >> We expect more now, so it should
> >> come as no surprise that it costs more.
> >
> >Actually, we expect less. For instance, it seems perfectly reasonable
> >for people to pay 200-600k for a CONDO in West LA/Santa Monica.
> >
> >Now, if you're a decent earner (90k-150k) that'll take you
> >approximately 30-years to pay for assuming you spend less than half
> >your earning on your home.
> >
> >If you're a "not-quite-so-decent" earner and are in the "average"
> >category, 40-60k, you can't afford to buy a condo in West LA/Santa
> >Monica - EVER. You can get the same kind of thing in Pasadena or
> >something.
> >
> >Now, compare to just 40 years ago - my Grandfather bought his VERY NICE
> >house in Arcadia (kind of an upscale Pasadena at the time and now) for
> >20k (which was A LOT). He was a "decent" earner for the time and paid
> >for his house inside of 10 years.
>
> I think a lot of this is due to how people who already own houses are
> able to keep people who do not own houses from building or placing
> some sort of cheap residence (such as a mobile home) on property
> nearby (which is the only way you can get utilities at a reasonable
> price--live near other people). Once again, our laws and regulations
> model animal societies, in that they are created by and used by those
> who currently have power and status in order to preserve their power
> and status. We call it NIMBY politics, but it is really about those
> who "have," keeping down those who "do not have." Enforcement of
> scarcity enriches those who "have," and they do the enforcing through
> voting.
>
> >When he sold his house, he pocketed something like (I don't know the
> >exact number) 500k (1990) but obviously couldn't afford to re-buy the
> >same house with the money. (He's happily retired in La Jolla just in
> >case you were worried about him... 88 years old and still kicking! A
> >closet transhumanist, he's blind and wants to have his eyes replaced
> >with artificial eyes, but can't because the FDA doesn't approve of the
> >surgery...)
>
> Yep. THat is one thing that everyone here agrees with--the FDA is
> evil.
>
> >> Earning a
> >> subsistence level survival is cheaper and easier now
> >> than ever before, and getting more so all the time.
> >
> >20 seconds on Google will show this to be false.
> >
> >Try starting here:
> >
> >http://www.weingart.org/institute/
> >
> >> One needn't even work: standing on a city streetcorner
> >> with a "Will Not Work for Anything" sign will get you
> >> all the donations needed to survive.
> >
> >Sure, if you don't mind sleeping in your own urine.
>
> Well, I guess there is one way that living is cheaper today: our
> agricultural technologies and market distribution systems are so
> efficient that we can buy enough beans and rice to survive for
> pennies. But where do you cook it? NIMBY politics precludes this
> lifestyle through legal means.
>
> >> ...Then, you could pay for a piece of land capable of
> >> sustaining your own family within 7 years by working...
> >>
> >> Today you can earn enough to support yourself in
> >> a similar manner by working only a few months.
> >
> >Well it depends on what you do.
> >
> >Ebay - Real Estate, 40 acres (remember, 40 acres and a mule) with a
> >house - farmable land.
> >
> >Generally well over 150k. I don't know about you, but earning and
> >KEEPING 150k nowadays is a big deal "for most people".
> >
> >> Look around you, Robbie. Farmland is as cheap as,
> >> well, dirt. It costs practically nothing.
> >
> >More than 1000/acre generally. You need about 40 acres to live on,
> >that's 40,000. I happen to have it, but then I make good money.
> >"MOST" people are negative in the cash arena.
>
> Yep. THat is one thing I have noticed about some of the people on this
> list--either they are all rich (Natasha seems to think many are), and
> think everyone is like them, or else they have totally bought
> into--and never emerged from-- the dotcom-stock market bubblethink of
> the late 90s. Or both....
>
> >CF - http://ideas.repec.org/p/wop/jopovw/220.html
> >
> >Mostly due to inflation, rising BASIC costs of real estate,
> >consolidation of income at the top 5% of earners, and of course the
> >personal factors - lack of education, foolish spending, etc.
>
> Or just plain old bad luck.....
>
> >"Most People" even though empirically are moving backwards in wealth
> >creation still believe that they're saving money. (If you put 2000
> >into an IRA this year, you think you're saving money, but if you've
> >incurred more than 2000 in debt, you're losing money generally by 9% or
> >more. "Most People" incurred more than 2000 in debt/negative finance
> >last year.)
> >
> >> If all
> >> you need to do is eat, like the "then" people, it
> >> is so simple even the hippies managed it, after
> >> a fashion.
> >
> >Where'd you pull this one out of? My parents were "hippies" that lived
> >on a commune for a short time. Few of those succeeded. Very, Very few
> >of them made it for more than 10 years. I doubt you could find more
> >than 100 examples of "American Kibutz's".
> >
> >> But there is little need for all that effort. Most
> >> farmers will let poor people glean the fields after
> >> a harvest today, and there is *plenty* of discarded
> >> clothing available for nothing or nearly so, clothing
> >> much more comfortable, durable, practical and even
> >> fashionable than anything the "then" people could
> >> have managed.
> >
> >I don't know what makes you think this, but if you go onto the Dole
> >Pineapple farm in Hawaii, they'll shoot you. And if you go into the
> >Del Monte Tomato farms, they'll have you arrested. "MOST" farmland
> >that's producing now is owned and operated by major corporations that
> >don't appreciate "gleaning". I think you're thinking of the Biblical
> >Law, but that was circa 4000 BC - TIMES HAVE CHANGED.
>
> Amen, brother!
>
> >> If you don't care for any of the luxuries that we
> >> have today, the cars, the electronics, the internet,
> >> the medical care, the stuff that the "then" people
> >> didn't have, earning a living has become so simple
> >> as to be trivial today. sp
> >
> >I don't know about you, but I pay $40/month for my home DSL and you can
> >buy a computer now for less than 200, plus another $100 or so for
> >monthly.
> >
> >On the other hand, food bills for a family of four are around
> >$2000/month. By FAR the biggest expenses are Rent/Mortgage and Food.
>
> Amen, brother!
>
> .......
>
> >Which states that great progress has been made in health since the turn
> >of the century BUT it does it's survey based on coal-mining. Now, coal
> >mining while dangerous, is no longer as large an industry as it was in
> >1900 and this study, while an interesting study of coal-mining related
> >deaths, is just baloney WITH THAT HEADLINE. The truth is, as it was
> >then, MOST PEOPLE DIE of accidental deaths, followed by whatever the
> >current flavor of disease is (polio, cancer, etc.)
> >
> >And the Extropic point in all of this is that the bottom line is that
> >the death rate continues to be 100%. Now you can make yourself feel
> >better about having better food (like In-N-Out) and better water
> >(probably false) but making a case for an overall improvement in the
> >quality and length of life is pretty hard when you actually look at the
> >data.
> >
> >NOT THAT things can't be potentially better, just that they are MERELY
> >potentially better.
>
> I really think that life is better than it was earlier this century,
> mainly because of several important vaccines--polio, etc., and also
> because of incremental engineering improvements and efficiencies that
> have given us a huge and efficient infrastructure that brings goods to
> market like never before. When it comes to engineering, everything
> seems to just keep getting better and better and better. At least in
> the consumer marketplace. But forget about organizations like
> NASA--that is a joke....
>
> Also, in combination with that, we have an accumulation of so many
> middle class people which makes it very easy for products to be
> developed and sold. This promise of potential profit from such a vast
> market of consumers offers an irresistible attraction for capital
> investment. And we benefit from that in so many ways....
>
> So in some ways, the extropian/freemarketeerism philosophy is correct,
> in that it builds a better future--IN THE LONG RUN. But what about the
> fact that in the long run, we are all dead? (or at least that is how
> it has worked till now....)
>
> What I personally care about is making enough money to make sure that
> I am cryopreserved in the best manner possible, and also while I am in
> the dewar, that the USA is able to maintain a STABLE culture and
> nation in the meantime. I could go on, but I need to work on my
> bathroom plumbing. WHy is it that women get so upset when the plumbing
> acts up...some kind of evolutionary thing? How does this relate to
> hunter gatherer lifestyles?....anyway....
>
>
>
>
> -------------
> -Randy
-- Be strong, have patience, pay attention and live well.
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