From: matus (matus@matus1976.com)
Date: Mon Aug 18 2003 - 09:13:05 MDT
Greg Burch said:
> I'm very sorry to see Lee leave the list, but I have to count
> it as a mistake on Lee's part. The mistake arises from what
> the concept of free speech means in the specific context of
> this forum.
I personally do not think the issue lies primarily with a question of
free speech. It's a question of an apparent wanton and arbitrary
expulsion of someone who happens to present generally unpopular
political opinions, and more specifically political opinions which
apparently counter opinions of extropy board members. In addition, I
can hardly find it reasonable to suspect that Mr. Lorreys banning had
nothing to do with calling to task the unproductive and inactive nature
of members of this mailing list, and official extropy activities.
> There will be even more disagreement about whether, rather
> than a single post, an overall approach to posting justifies
> exclusion.
> Persistent combativeness and lack of
> politeness can and should be a factor - an important factor -
> in applying the sanction of exclusion in a private, focused
> forum. Someone whose posts are consistently personalistic
> and which generate continuing personal unpleasantness can't
> stay in a semi-public, semi-private forum forever without the
> overall tone of the forum being degraded.
Nor can apparently vague, arbitrary, and explusions suspicious of a
personal vendetta not degrade the overall tone of this mailing list.
>
> I know there is a core disagreement among some people about
> whether values of politeness and personal tone should be a
> factor in list governance. To those who maintain that they
> should not, I urge you to consider that the packaging of
> ideas IS important and that a community can be and will be
> judged by the manners it tolerates.
And it is also judged by the manner in which it tolerates dissenting
voices. I find it hard to believe the Mr. Lorrey is the single worst
perveryor of deragotary implications, personal attacks, or general
un-productive un-civilized discourse. I invite any one to view
Humanias' vitriloic emotional rants of the past few months presented
against those who supported the War in Iraq.
> The very act of enforcing minimal
> standards of tone and style itself generates unpleasantness
> and ill-feelings among many. But this is also a challenge of
> freedom: Real liberty is perforce accompanied by the duty to
> realize such values,
Indeed, which is why it would be good to present a reasonable and
understandable case for Mr. Lorrey's explusions, or else people of
similar political persuasions or even those who feel they may one day
not be in good favor with the 'right' people may persistently feel the
sword of Damaclees is perpetually hanging over their heads by an ever
thinning thread. Even in your post justifying his expulsion, we still
see no clear and reasonable case made about it, just some vague comments
about maintaining the integrity of the list. Coupled with Natasha's
previous comments about 'harmful to the community', some do not feel
this bodes well for the integrity of discourse on this list or the value
of continuing to be a member of it.
> To return to the concept of free speech, I urge subscribers
> to consider that ExI is not a government, and the values and
> rules regarding governmental regulation of speech don't
> necessarily translate into matters of private list
> governance.
No one is saying you cant do what you want as a private organization,
but don't expect it to not reflect negatively on the integrity of the
list. It is a private forum to be done with by the owners what they
will, but fortunately unlike governments, we can freely choose to leave.
I hope extropy does not see a mass emmigration, but given past events I
cant see how there wont be at least some.
This is a private forum, not a government, but that doesn't mean we have
to sit by and not protest the apparent change from an open, progressive,
and free discussion to one of e-gulags and enemies of the e-states.
Of course, if we dissent, much like in oppressive governments, we may
simply be e-disappeared.
> Mike Lorrey's exclusion: Ultimately he
> is free to post elsewhere, create his own forum, post web pages, etc.
>
Indeed, and some of us have all ready created our own lists.
> Finally, I urge those who are unhappy to look again at
> Natasha's post: New organization for our discussions is in
> the works and any exclusion from this forum is temporary.
Sure, but the precedent has been set.
Michael Dickey
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