From: Party of Citizens (citizens@vcn.bc.ca)
Date: Tue Aug 05 2003 - 12:42:50 MDT
Would you say this issue sums up to whether there is DIRECT INTERFACE WITH
THE NERVOUS SYSTEM or not? If so, that creates a special kind of cyborg, a
"neurobot" if you will. Anybody with a heart implant is a cyborg, but
Warwick may have been the first neurobot.
POC
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Brett Paatsch wrote:
> [Having had the benefit of your comments I thought
> I take another look at this thread in light of some of
> the claims Warwick makes in his book ]
>
> On Monday, July 28, 2003 11:34 PM: I wrote:
>
> > > I would be interested to hear what others think of
> > > Warwick's claims to have been the first cyborg and
> > > to what extent if at all his achievements in practice
> > > have been surpassed by others or by Warwick
> > > himself, now, less than a year since I, CYBORG,
> > > was written. - Brett Paatsch
>
> [Alex Blainey]
> >
> > In my mind Warwick's claim to be the first cyborg
> > is unjustified. He has done little more than implant
> > a small transmitter tracking device that has no real
> > interface with or use to the body. The device would
> > have given exactly the same results if it were in his
> > pocket, rather than under his skin.
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> > That said, I could be forced to agree that he is
> > probably the first human cyborg for being a cyborg's
> > sake. I believe his next step will be to implant direct
> > neural connections and a transmitter. This is a far
> > greater step towards Cyborgism and should yield
> > some interesting data. Direct interfacing is the way
> > to go.
>
> Alex, Warwick did a simpler experiment in 1998 where
> all he did do was implant a small transmitter in his arm
> (without connecting it any way to the median nerve) and
> walk about with it, activating appliances in a computerised
> house, almost, as you aptly put it, as though it was in his
> pocket. Yet, in this book written in August 2002, he does
> actually get an electrode array surgically implanted into
> the medial nerve of his left wrist for three months. I wonder
> if it is possible that you have heard of the earlier work and
> are mixing it up with the later 2002 experiment? Certainly
> Warwick is claiming he achieved direct interfacing (albeit
> in a limited way) with this set of 2002 experiments.
>
> "A micro electrode array consisting of 100 individual
> electrodes (only 20 of which were active due to manu-
> facturer delivery time constraints) was implanted in the
> median nerve (lower left arm above the wrist). The radius
> of each electrode tip was 1-3 mm, the active region being
> 50-80mm long."
>
> "The technique (provided) selective recording and
> stimulation of sensory and/or motor neurons within the
> nerve fascicles."
>
> "The main difference between the 1998 implant and the
> new experiment was the connection that would be made
> with the nervous system, ... using the Utah array. The
> main body of the implant (was) a radio transmitter/
> receiver (used) to send signals from (his) nervous system
> by radio to the computer and to receive signals sent,
> again by radio, from the computer and play them on
> (his) nervous system via the median nerve in his arm."
>
> Amongst the achievements that Warwick would claim
> in the 2002 experiments would be the following:
>
> In a first set of experiments in April 2002 Warwick
> showed how signals from his brain could be used to
> control robots, operate in a limited way an articulated
> robotic hand, and to manipulate the local environment
> (the network in the cybernetics building).
>
> In a second set of experiments Warwick controlled the
> robot hand via moving his fingers and sending a neural
> signal to a computer then across the Atlantic, via the
> internet. He verified that he could receive a signal back
> to his nervous system (a small shock to his median nerve
> closing his left index finger) over the internet and
> demonstrated a sort of bat like extra sense. To do this
> he wore an ultrasonic hat with sender and receiver
> antenna both wired from a wearable hat into his median
> nerve via the array such that he could judge the proximity
> of approaching or retreating objects with his eyes closed.
>
> Warwick argues these are true cyborg powers because
> sensing over the internet and having a sonar sense like
> a crude form of bat sonar is above and beyond the senses
> of normal humans.
>
> Warwick also managed to drive a wheelchair using the
> signals sent from his median nerve when he opened and
> closed his hand and managed to set up a crude sort
> of Morse code whereby he and his partner (that had a
> single electrode implanted) could send each other simple
> messages (essentially something or nothing - so a kind
> of Morse code). This for Warwick was *the* very big
> deal as he saw it as the first direct nervous system to
> nervous system communication. Albeit in a simple form.
>
> [Mez writes]
> >
> > Warwick was certainly not the first human to have
> > electrodes inserted into his body. Back in 97, years
> > before Warwick had an electrode stuck in his arm,
> > Phil Kennedy was inserting electrodes into the
> > brains of patients with ALS and giving them the
> > ability to move cursors on computer screens by
> > thought. More than 20 years ago, Dobelle implanted
> > his first patient with a cortical visual prosthesis
> > producing useful vision. There are more than
> > 80,000 people with cochlear implants now -
> > electrodes stimulating their auditory nerve.
> >
>
> All good points and Warwick would agree with these
> too.
>
> [Mez continues:]
> > Warwick's experiments, by contrast, are rather tame.
>
> Here I think I must disagree. Whilst Warwicks successes
> are mainly proof in principle they do imo achieve successes
> *as* proofs in principle. That Warwick was able to get his
> experimental protocols through ethics committees and get
> his finding on the record should make it substantially easier
> for others to do follow up research. Warwicks research
> shows that given a sufficiently detailed understanding of the
> nervous system (which we are seriously lacking because its
> so hard to get permission to do the experiments) it would be
> possible to give amputees "bridges" over damaged nerves
> and to get direct nervous system control over wheelchairs
> etc. He also puts on the record that the brain can quickly
> adopt and accommodate new sensory input without any
> apparent side effects over a three month period.
>
> By doing what he did scientifically, in the way he did it, as
> a self promoting publicity machine Warwick pushed the
> peanut forward substantially in my view. He deliberately
> courted the media and managed to make his relationship
> with them a symbiotic one. In this I think his story, like the
> story of Michael West in Merchant's of Immortality is
> a story worth aspiring extropic entrepreneurs taking on
> board.
>
> [Natasha picks up Alex Blainey's point:]
> > > IMO even people with artificial limbs or joints rank
> > > higher on the cyborg scale than Warwick.
> >
> > I agree in total. You make an important point. The art
> > of machine/human interface is being performed by the
> > most apt people around - those who need to upgrade
> > to live or function, rather than fancy footwork and
> > superficial accessorization at this point.
>
> To Warwicks credit he does not minimise the seriousness
> of artificial limbs, cochlea implants etc or the utility of
> wearables. All these things are seen as good. He is however
> interested in improving the functionality and range of such
> artificial limbs and he is not averse, indeed he savours the
> idea of not just replacing what is lost of normal human
> function but positively adding too human capabilities as
> a matter of choice.
>
> [Charles Hixson raises the point of what is a cyborg
> and cybernetics:]
> >
> > Perhaps "cyborgness" should be considered a graduated
> > phenomenon rather than a flip-flop. This would put the
> > first people to wear furs to stay warm at the most primitive
> > level of cyborg.
> >
> > OTOH, a person with a pace-maker is definitely more of
> > a cyborg than a guy with an implanted tracker. (Cyborg:
> > Cybernetic Organism. Cybernetic from the Greek steersman.
> > ref.: Norbert Weiner.)
>
> >From a number of standpoints the precise definition of cyborg
> may be arbitrary. Warwick sees some merit in preserving the
> term not for wearables (though he doesn't diminish their importance)
> but for "something that is part-animal, part-machine and whose
> capabilities are extended *beyond* normal limits. This is much
> more general than other definitions and includes creatures other
> than humans. It allows for mental upgrades as well as physical
> upgrades and allows the extension to go beyond the normal
> limits of either the animal or the machine." Warwick distinguishes
> wearables as part of a "cybernetic system".
>
> [Samantha writes:]
> > Actually, Steve Mann of continuous wearable computer
> > fame, is much more advanced as a practical cyborg imho
> > than anyone with medical prothesis of any kind currently
> > on the market.
>
> Steve Mann certainly gets a favourable plug in the book.
>
> My interest Samantha was to try and find out what sorts of
> products and what the state of the art (or near state of the
> art) in cyborg or cyborg-like technologies was. On the whole
> I think the book gives a pretty good summary in retrospect.
>
> I agree that from a practical point of view, at least in the
> short term there is a lot to be said for being able to put on
> and take off clothing having the sort of extra capabilities
> that one might have as a cyborg. However what intrigued me
> about the book was the argument that eventually the forms of
> interpersonal communication people use with each other
> will come to seem hopelessly inadequate in comparison
> with the sort of tech enable telepathy that may become
> available. I was also on the lookout for work that might
> indicate to me how much is actually able to be done in
> terms of cutting into the bodies of volunteers who want
> to experiment in an informed way with memory enhancements
> and uploads in the future. What struck me was that we
> actually know so little not just about the brain but about
> the nervous system generally, and that this is a logical
> consequence of our aversion to do research on living
> humans (including volunteers and ourselves).
>
> [ Samantha again:]
>
> > Manfred Clynes described the need for humans to
> > artificially enhance biological functions in order to
> > survive in the hostile environment of Space.
>
> This theme of the need to become cyborgs, to join
> with the machines or be displaced by them is an
> underlying one throughout the book. Warwick like
> Moravec sees humans qua humans eventually becoming
> a subspecies.
> ---------
>
> Thanks for the thoughts folks. In hindsight I reckon the
> book is a reasonably good read but as I said originally
> it is like looking over the shoulder of a researcher and
> I imagine a ghost writer or several editors had to do a
> lot of work to turn Warwicks notes into a readable
> but not very indexed book.
>
> Regards,
> Brett Paatsch
>
>
>
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