Re: Ethical Investment Gone Wild

From: Mark Walker (mark@permanentend.org)
Date: Tue Jul 22 2003 - 07:48:10 MDT

  • Next message: Mark Walker: "Re: Ethical Investment Gone Wild"

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury@aeiveos.com>

    >
    > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Mark Walker wrote:
    >
    > > One of the ethical issues that this might raise is whether it would be
    > > permissible to discriminate on the basis of an angelic rating. Would it
    be
    > > ok to hire on the basis of the candidate's angelic rating?
    >
    > The problem is that it is too easy to "bias" the rating -- I can be "good"
    > for a decade with the intent of getting a high "angelic" rating and then
    coast
    > on it.
    >
    Well, the angelic rating is a lifetime average, so if you coast long enough
    then your angelic rating will go down. On the other hand, if you have built
    up sufficient good deed capital then it is good that the system doesn't
    punish too severely short-term coasting.

    > So one has the problem that one selects based on high ratings that are
    > in reality fraudulent. If you know of a system that can't be "milked"
    > please show it to me.
    >

    Well, you are right that it is difficult to think of a system that cannot be
    "milked". Some people succeed in milking the banking system but from this we
    don't conclude that the banking system should be abandoned. The problem
    would have to be that "milking" is so systemic that the angelic system
    cannot be maintained. I imagine that the system would require its own
    justice system, those accused of milking the system would have to face their
    day of judgment in the angelic court.

    > > Would it be ok
    > > for universities to set admission criteria in terms of an angelic
    rating?
    > > I'm inclined to think that this shouldn't be a problem.
    >
    > For the first few years (when "natural" behaviors) were in effect yes.
    > But as soon as people figured out how to milk the system the "ratings"
    > would be of questionable value.
    >
    Again, I'm not sure that the milking would reach such a high percentage that
    it would cause the collapse of the system. The system is based on measurable
    deeds like hours volunteered and monies donated. It is true that there is a
    possibility that the system could support some corruption: suppose you are
    head of a charity and I offer a bride to you to lie on my behalf and say
    that I volunteered 40 hours a week at your organization and donated millions
    of dollars. This would do wonders for my angelic rating. I suspect that
    others that know me would be aware that my angelic rating was immorally
    obtained and would be tempted to report me to the angelic court. Indeed, I
    think the temptation here to report would be a least as great There would be
    some problem, for example, of determining whether a charity is legitimate or
    not. (Please donate to the "beer for Mark Walker fund" might not be
    legitimate). Fortunately, a lot of legal thinking has already gone into
    defining this notion.

    > It is interesting -- such an approach might produce group (tribe)
    supportive
    > behaviors (above the average level) for a limited period of time -- that
    might
    > be of net benefit to society for some period -- but one has to wonder
    about
    > whether there might be a net downside once the cat is out of the bag.
    > (e.g. "You mean you manipulated me into being a better person than I
    > would otherwise naturally be -- how could you do that?")
    >
    > R.
    >
    No doubt some will feel that they are being manipulated, they could protest
    by not doing any good or they might pretend not to do good while actually
    doing good. The question is whether so many would rebel against the system
    that it would collapse. I tend to think that the evidence that we have
    suggests that this wouldn't be the case. My guess is most would think
    (falsely) that they would perform the good deeds in the absence of the
    system although acknowledging that the system might manipulate others. Those
    who would already rank higher on the angelic system will likely approve of
    the system because it recognizes their contribution and punishes the free
    riders.

    A related worry is that some, with a Kantian bent, might wonder if the
    system actually promotes moral behavior, not because more good consequences
    don't obtain, but because they are not done for the right motive. That is,
    if one is performing the "good deeds" just to move higher on the angelic
    scale then the deeds are not being done for the right reason. Of course,
    those of us that are more concerned with outcomes rather than the belief
    that the only thing unconditionally good is the "good will" won't be
    bothered by this objection.

    Cheers,

    Seraphim Mark

    Mark Walker, PhD
    Research Associate, Philosophy, Trinity College
    University of Toronto
    Room 214 Gerald Larkin Building
    15 Devonshire Place
    Toronto
    M5S 1H8
    www.permanentend.org



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