From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Fri Jul 18 2003 - 22:29:46 MDT
Harvey writes
> > We can maintain the spirit of Crocker's rules while
> > still being open, diplomatic, kind and honest.
>
> I find that most people quote Crocker's rules as an excuse to participate in
> insulting or ad hominem attacks in violation of the list rules. I am not
> sure if Crocker's rules and the current list rules are compatible.
I myself have always declined to "accept" Crocker's rules.
They always struck me as a radical and immature attempt
to ignore traditions that had evolved for good reason.
Now I admit that this is not an easy topic; recall the
Japanese business ministers who in frustration announced
at the beginning of a meeting: "This meeting will be
conducted in English." (The step was necessary in their
eyes because some frank things needed to be said to certain
people---frank yet by our standards, I am sure, not insulting
---and the very structure of the Japanese language made that
too difficult.
Yet the point is that politeness and courtesy have evolved
for reasons that are not hard for me to see. Therefore I
totally agree with you.
> The problem with arguing for "truth" and "honesty", is that
> all attackers are sure they are being truthful and honest
> in their attacks. Even the 911 terrorists claimed truth,
> honesty and integrity for their actions. Such a standard,
> while theoretically sound, is almost never useful in practice.
> Humans always seem to be able to justify their actions
> in their own minds such that they are the good guys.
Of course. SWEIN? 8^D
> > We deal with some difficult topics on this list, but
> > I call on people to eschew heated argument in
> > favor of controlled argument.
>
> You can "call" for this all you want, but it never happens.
Well... sometimes it happens!
> Why would this call be any different? Seriously, do you
> think you have just solved our problems? If not, what
> would be a good solution to stopping flame wars.
I dunno; how about drawing and quartering?
> I think they are self-destructive behavior which nobody
> wants. But we do not seem to want to stop them either.
The alternative I propose is to learn to live with it.
Even better is this advice: just skip posts by people
who are engaging in flame wars.
> > ExI's best days are yet before of us. Let us
> > cut down on rancor and fan the flames of progress.
> > We are on the eve of construction.
>
> OK, but let's not just say it as a matter of faith.
> Let's take real action. What exact changes do you
> propose to make that will cut down on rancor? If
> no changes are made, none will occur.
Well, I propose no changes. In fact, I don't even see
the need for any. Moreover, I cannot even imagine any
that wouldn't make things worse. But since you are so
interested in making changes, what do *you* propose?
Lee
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