Re: Sol-like system discovered...SETI new directions?

From: Anders Sandberg (asa@nada.kth.se)
Date: Sat Jul 12 2003 - 03:51:12 MDT

  • Next message: Anders Sandberg: "Re: Sol-like system discovered...SETI new directions?"

    On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:48:51PM -0400, Paul Grant wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 ABlainey@aol.com wrote:
    > It is also true that to get gravity waves one has to manipulate *very*
    > large masses.
    >
    > Me: or shutter a large mass :) like a signal fire :) Why build the fire
    > when you can misdirect it using a blanket :)

    This assumes there is a way of shutter gravity. It is an old idea in sf
    (Cavorite in H.G. Wells _First Men on the Moon_), but when viewed in
    general relativity it does not make much sense: gravity is the effect of
    curved spacetime, so how do you shutter it in? You would need a way to
    prevent the curvature at one point to affect a nearby point which would
    require either that you somehow made the Einstein equations stop acting
    or introduced a new curvature field in between that did the job - and
    that likely involves manipulating absurd amounts of mass and/or exotic
    matter again.

    > That is *very* expensive relative to the manipulation of photons (which
    > effectively have very low masses [based on E = mc^2]).
    >
    > Me: Depends on how you do it :) no doubt an elegant solution is just
    > waiting to be found :) At this point, I wouldn't say its
    > impossible, or even improbable :) Just that more data is needed :) In
    > any event, it certainly is worth examining, if nothing
    > else for the questions it would raise....

    So, any ideas for this research program? In what ways can we generate
    gravitons (if working within the particle physics framework)?

    It seems to me that the ideal method would be to convert one species of
    particle into gravitons plus some other species, like how we can get
    neutrinos from beta decay. But that likely would require the existence
    of some symmetry-breaking current that allowed interaction between the
    other three and gravity.

    In the GR field framework the issue would be to make strong gravity
    waves without having a large energy tensor. Maybe that can happen if one
    already has a big (complex) gravitational field where small inputs can
    be amplified by tapping energy or curvature already existing in the
    system. IMHO this sounds less unlikely than the previous approach, but
    still not particularly promising.

    > Another really interesting question, which just occurred to me, is:
    > does gravity reflect? are their materials which absorb/rebuff gravity...
    > or is it all simply a matter of constructive/destructive interference
    > sans reflection?

    Static gravity fields do not seem to reflect/refract, but there are
    indeed some weird goings on for dynamic strong fields. Look at
    http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SCMS/DigLib/text/astro/Gravitational-Wave-Black-Hole-Hobill.html
    for example, which shows some nontrivial "refractions" of a gravity
    wave.

    In general (no no pun intended) you need to learn more about general
    relativity in order to say something constructive about gravity. It is
    not the simple force we usually assume. Check out the links at
    http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/relativity.html I especially like Greg
    Egan's tutorial
    http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/FOUNDATIONS/index.html and the
    FAQ at http://www2.corepower.com:8080/~relfaq/relativity.html (which has
    a nice treatment of the speed of gravity issue)

    -- 
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Anders Sandberg                                      Towards Ascension!
    asa@nada.kth.se                            http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/
    GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
    


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