From: matus@matus1976.com
Date: Thu Jun 05 2003 - 21:00:03 MDT
> --- John K Clark <jonkc@att.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm not blasi, I know it's a terrible problem but I
> also know that making nice to Islam will not reduce
> their anger one iota because the root cause of
> that anger was not any specific action committed by
> the west. They are angry at us for what we are not
> what we did.
>
> Allow me to present an alternate view. (Which is a
> gentle BUT RESPECTFUL way to say I disagree.)
>
>
> > ...the root cause of that anger was not any specific
> action committed by the west. They are angry at us
> for what we are not what we did.
>
> No. Some segment of Islam--maybe even a very large
> fraction--may disapprove of western cultural values,
> but so long as we keep it here, and don't force it on
> them, it's probably not something they care a whole
> lot about.
>
> It's the aggressive intrusion of the west that
> inspires their antipathy. The crusades. The
> invasions of western "colonial" powers, most noitable
> and recently the parcelling up of the mideast by the
> Europeans (primarily the Brits) after the defeat of
> the Ottomans. The propping up of corrupt local puppet
> regimes for the dual benefit of control of a strategic
> resource (oil) and the theft(essentially) of the
> profits therefrom. And finally, the jewel in the
> crown, the poison pill, the knife in the back (or
> perhaps I should say the ice pick in the face) of the
> deliberate, overt, unashamed, and unrelenting
> "erasure" of Palestine and ethnic cleansing of the
> Palestinians, accompanied by their replacement by an
> ultra-aggressive, ultra-militaristic(which is to say
> threatening), and ultra-contemptuous
> Jewish state (where, despite declamations of its
> democratic nature, Jews are, by law, the privileged
> class).
>
> That is why they are pissed.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
Allow me to counter your view. Your comments were the popular
interpretation amongst libertarians (including me) just after 9/11. There
is a compelling case amongst middle eastern people to dislike the US and the
west, and you correctly note some of those concerns. However, the popular
disdain for the US in these instances ignores the geo-politcal climate at
the time, especially concerning actions since WWII.
Concerning your comments on Isreal, I would note there is a growing member
of the palestenian people that seek life under democratic Isreal rule,
considering palestinians in Isreal have the right to vote (which no other
Arabs in the middle east do) and are not conscripted into the Israel
military (which Jewish citizens are) The pro-isreal democratic members of
the palestinians face continued terrorist harrasement and assaults by the
racist pro-palestinian state activists who as the PA and Arafat are no less
than an oppressive dictatorial regime idealogically opposed to living under
an Isreali state. A promiment member of this group was shot five times
allegedly by Arafat thugs. But isreal is the only bad guy, and arafat won a
noble peace prize, sorry, I forgot.
Palestinians are brainwashed and coerced by arafat and his despotic PLO
regime into blaming isreal for everthing and convincing them to kill as many
israel children as possible. Arafat is the dictator of the Palestinian
Authority in everyway but in official title, palestinians live in constant
fear of having their property arbitrarily confiscated by arafat's corrupt
'police' force, laws prohibiting free speech are enforced brutally. Mayor
Zuhir Hamden publicly stated his villagers live not under Arafat but Under
Isreal, he was subsequenty shot five times. Do you think he was shot by
Isreal troops?
"Zuhair Hamdan, founder of the Movement for Coexistence in Jerusalem, was
sitting on a chair outside his corner shop near Bethlehem in November when
an official Palestinian Authority car drew up with a squeal of brakes. From
the back window a gunman, who Mr. Hamdan says was a member of the gang,
emptied 12 bullets from a M-16 rifle, hitting him five times in the abdomen,
legs and neck."
from - http://www.likud.nl/extr200.html
The debate over the moral justification of actions in Palestinine is no
doubt a long and detailed one, but do not pretend the Isreal people and
nation are the only perpetrators against the Palestinain people. The
palestinian people are subtly ruled by a murderous racist brainwashing
regime, they would have been far better off under the democratic rule of
Isreal.
What occupation -
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=2053
"during the three decades of Israel's control, far fewer Palestinians were
killed at Jewish hands than by King Hussein of Jordan in the single month of
September 1970 when, fighting off an attempt by Yasir Arafat's PLO to
destroy his monarchy, he dispatched (according to the Palestinian scholar
Yezid Sayigh) between 3,000 and 5,000 Palestinians, among them anywhere from
1,500 to 3,500 civilians"
""If the occupation was the cause of terrorism, why was terrorism sparse
during the years of actual occupation, why did it increase dramatically with
the prospect of the end of the occupation, and why did it escalate into open
war upon Israel's most far-reaching concessions ever?"
Palestenian and Arab extremism - http://www.likud.nl/extr.html
Nevertheless, assuming the pre WWII reasons you cite for their continued
hating of the west are valid, what would you suggest we do about that?
Re-assemble the ottoman empire? Have Europe and France pay post-colonial
repirations? The fact is those things can not be undone. In any case, the
downplay the 'they hate us for who we are' scenerio is intellectual
dishonesty. They hate us for what we have done AND who we are. What we
have done will never go away, it will always be something we have done, and
they will continue to hate us for who we are, unless you plan on changine
who we are or what we have done, I dont see how your comments will help lead
to a resolution. The corrupt leaders of Arab regimes are foreced to choose
between blaiming the ills of the arab peoples on themselves and their
failure to embrace modernity or to blame it on the west. Which do you think
is easier to teach, and which do you think the Arab leaders have a greater
motivation to preach?
I suggest reading the wonderfully enlighteing Essay posted a few times on
this list
ISLAM'S WAR AGAINST THE WEST from - http://www.howardbloom.net/islam.htm
And see if you still believe that radical Islam only hates the west because
of 'what we did'
Regards,
Michael Dickey
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