RE: [Iraq] The real reason for the war

From: Ramez Naam (mez@apexnano.com)
Date: Thu Jun 05 2003 - 20:02:09 MDT

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    From: Dehede011@aol.com [mailto:Dehede011@aol.com]
    > MEZ,
    > Then laugh all you want if you are amused but tell me
    > why you are pushing the Arab party line instead of admitting
    > the truth. Your people hate us because of who and what we
    > are.

    Ron, they're not "my people". They're just people.

    I'm not pushing any Arab party line. I'm just telling you that in my
    opinion every single person I know living in the middle east (200
    maybe?) would gladly immigrate to the US. They're not dumb. They
    know we have a better government, better schools, more freedom, higher
    standard of living, more opportunity for their kids, etc... And they
    want those things for themselves.

    > Instead you want to make it sound as if we have
    > deeply offended you on some deep level and that the
    > evidence we have found is non existent.

    What evidence?

    My contention is that people are people. The vast majority of people
    on this planet want safety, freedom, affluence, a better life for
    their children, etc... Specifically, that is what the vast majority
    of people living in the middle east want. And of course, many people
    in any culture who live in poverty and see others living in wealth
    feel jealousy and resentment. That's a strong feeling in the middle
    east - not because arabs hate democracy and capitalism, but because
    arabs want affluence and opportunity, the things which only come with
    democracy and capitalism.

    My contention is supported by vast anthropological data on the
    commonality of human behavior across thousands of cultures around the
    world. See for example Pinker's new book, _The Blank Slate_.

    My contention is further supported by the following:

    1) Across the Arab world, roughly 100 times as many people apply to
    immigrate to the US each year than are accepted. In Egypt alone,
    about 150,000 people sought to immigrate to the US in 2002. Let me
    put that another way: about 1 in every 300 people in Egypt applied to
    immigrate to the US in just this past year. Is that the sign of
    people who hate the American way of life?

    2) American culture is wildly successful in the middle east. The top
    movies and TV shows are dubbed or subtitled versions of US hits.
    American and British music is big there. The local media have
    themselves become progressively more westernized over the past few
    years.

    3) As an example of the above, consider Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera is a
    new phenomenon in the middle east. It came out of nowhere to become
    the most widely viewed news station in the world. Why? Well, it
    takes a western journalistic attitude towards the news, being willing
    to say things that state-sponsored TV won't. And it comes across as
    modern and high tech. It has flashy graphics like CNN. It has female
    anchors and reporters. Male and female anchors alike dress in western
    clothes. Compare this to the older and less successful state
    stations. They look old-fashioned. They just mouth the party line.
    The anchors dress in traditional middle eastern garb.

    Seems to me like western memes are winning.

    4) Finally, my personal experiences with scores of people currently
    living in the middle east and scores more who have immigrated from
    there is that, virtually without fail, people in the middle east want
    the trappings of American life.

    > Heck after more than fifty years your people can't
    > even tell the truth about Israel nor admit they have a
    > right to live except at your mercy.

    Now you're just flame baiting.

    But enough. I get very little value from your posts, so I don't think
    I'll be reading or responding to them from here on out.

    cheers,
    mez



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