From: Olga Bourlin (fauxever@sprynet.com)
Date: Sun Jun 01 2003 - 19:19:38 MDT
From: Spudboy100@aol.com
Now I am wondering about your personal life-experiences,
***As a child I felt privileged to have lived in several countries, and noticed early on that a person's religion was pretty much a crap shoot that depended on which culture/country that person was reared, and that people were pretty much alike (except for the gratuitous limitations placed by religions).
... because many people who have entered prison, and people from everyday life don't believe in a "god".
***Many people who don't believe in a "god" doesn't mean that they don't believe in astrology or satan or some other supernatural force. It's all very difficult to distinguish, isn't it?
And they get religion, behind bars, as a way to get past the parole board, and to give them a sense of hope, ease boredom and the like.
***Do you think this is what happend to Charles Colson and Eldridge Cleaver (imagine that, closet atheists!)?
***From what I've read, people who are nontheists (and I would add here, "nonsupernaturalists") tend to be better educated (with scientists and the scientifically-inclined making up a sizeable percentage of this group, but this is *by no means* the only group representing nontheists), and also tend to be better off financially (generally speaking) than religious people. On the world's stage, this would seem to be true, as well - the poorest countries are usually the most religious, and the most industrialized countires are usually the least religious.
***Only a minority of people in the USA are considered nontheists - the number used to be about 5%-10%, but it looks like it's been rising:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
Conversely, I am not certain of the rate of Orthodox Jews, or Mennonites behind bars; but will assess that it is vanishingly small.
***I'm sure you're right, but I was interested in getting statistical data on criminality regarding religious v. nonreligious populations; the Orthodox Jews and Anabaptist types would certainly be counted in the mix to and would weigh in on the results. (As an aside, one can make a case that there are prisons ... and then there are "prisons." Can't say I've known any Anabaptists, but I have known a couple of Orthodox Jews and - I kid you not - they scooted around in their own little prisons wherever they went.)
Or do you have to have a masters degree in philosophy to be an atheist?
***Oh, dear, oh dear, oh dear ... does it take a master's degree? Sheesh, I didn't know that. But now that we're on the subject, I'll tell you a secret - neither a bachelor's degree, nor a master's degree nor a Ph.D. necessarily gives anyone upmanship in regard to being right or (the next fact, particularly, is *shocking but true*) ... even being very bright. Yes, when I found this out I was shocked, I tell you ... shocked! But I got over it, the birdies are singing once again, and all's right with my world ...
You will have to help me with your description of what it is to be a "better citizen"? Does that mean merely, avoiding prison? Does not believing in God, mean that you vote for the candidates more wisely, are more likely to give to deserving charities? What is your criteria?
***Well, without thinking of it too deeply when I wrote that, I was thinking about people who hurt other people - committing rape, robbery, murder and the like - but since then I've reconsidered. Not all who go to prison do so to cause harm to others. Even during my lifetime, I remember several acquaintances of mine going to prison for civil rights and because of their opposition to the Vietnam war. Martin Luther King went to prison. Thoreau. Thomas Paine.
***So, I'll relable my remarks from now to "criminals" ... people who break the law and who hurt other people.
Was Carl Sagan a better citizen then Charles Townes, who does believe in God?
***Somewhat of a toss up. But I'll go with Carl Sagan (who was a genuinely sweet man, and with whom I shared a brief correspondence before he died) as he popularized science "for the masses" as none had done before him. This was a great contribution, the effects of which we may yet see in years to come.
What I am saying is, unless you can come up with better examples, is:
Better citizens, my ass.
***Have I said something to offend you?
Cultishly, Yours
Mitch
***Egad, I'm so sorry about your "cult" thing.
Olga
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