Re: Off-Off-List Re: META: Dishonest debate (was "cluster bombs")

From: Jeff Davis (jrd1415@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Jun 16 2003 - 08:14:35 MDT

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    Friends,

    --- Spudboy100@aol.com wrote:
    > I am replying off-list because of the bandwidth
    > noise currently on the list.
    > I suspect, based only on his writings, the later.
    > His posts seem antagonsitic
    > at best. But that is my perception and it may not be
    > correct.
    >
    > <<This is obscure. You think Jeff is a filthy Yid,
    > or you think he's the sort
    > of scum who thinks Jews are filthy Yids?
    >
    > Damien Broderick>>
    >

    Oy!

    For he record, I've no quarrel with Spud (which is, I
    assure you, a friendly nick). He seems to me a
    decent, smart, open-minded fellow. And nobody's fool.
     We have differences, but what's that? Just a
    resource for a lively exchange of views, and the
    chance to maybe learn something.

    I'm a non-religious jew, or as I sometimes like to
    say, jew-boy, (mischievously exercising the license
    granted to those who are members of a group to say
    things not allowed 'outsiders'). I was born in
    Jersey, and love Jews and Italians (and girls with
    not-too-large-breasts, among others)--passionate
    people who wave their hands when they breathe, and
    whose mothers make soup and bread to raise the dead,
    ...or, as the old joke goes, at least it voodn't hoit.
     I think the American dream and the jewish dream are
    identical, and I'm a 100% true believer in it/them.
    But...

    I have the deepest possible enmity for zionism. It is
    **THE** root of the problem in the mideast. It is a
    betrayal of the most sacred values of Judaism,
    poisoning its ethical center, and threatening its very
    destruction as none of its external adversaries ever
    could. Zionism totally delegitimizes the state of
    Israel and transforms the thousand-year-old dream of a
    land of milk and honey, a dream of hope and compassion
    and justice, into a nightmare of blood and bile. I
    don't think I am the only jew who feels this way, at
    once outraged and heartsick.

    This is what the spudster has noticed in my postings
    on the subject, and which he fairly characterizes when
    he writes that my "posts seem antagonsitic at best".

    Back when I was posting on this, spud was the only one
    who got past the arguments over the context-defining
    historical events to ask after my version of a
    solution. By that time I'd had it up to here (holds
    hand level with eyeballs)with the subject, and I never
    did respond, but I appreciated it, and I remember.
    It's so frustrating--and a central feature of the
    Israel/Palestine problem--that discussion stalls over
    historical culpability and never gets on to the
    positivity of solution seeking.

    So let me take this opportunity to offer my "short and
    cranky" version of a solution to the I/P problem.
    It's one of the less creative solutions, but it'll
    have to do for now.

    Take the territory comprising "Israel" and the west
    bank and Gaza, combine them into one country, and
    change the spelling (while leaving the pronunciation
    up to the individual) to P-A-L-E-S-T-I-N-E. Then,
    xerox a copy of the US Constitution, scratch out the
    USofA wherever it is found and write in
    P-A-L-E-S-T-I-N-E. Bring everyone who ever lived
    there back in. Get your bean counters workin' on the
    restoration of private property according to who owned
    what before the nastiness began. (If there's a
    shortfall here, where guiltless/good faith folks have
    conflicting claims, then have the Brits,
    American-supporters-of-Israel, Zionists, and Saudi's
    foot the bill.) Disarm everyone, hold elections, and
    start out fresh. Rinse and repeat.

    (Same for Iraq, by the way.)

    Finally, just for fun, allow me to add, relating to
    this topic, an excerpt, entertaining, perhaps mildly
    humorous, by an obscure scribbler. See if you can
    figure out who the author is:

    "...if I thought myself prejudiced against the Jew, I
    should hold it fairest to leave this subject to a
    person not crippled in that way. But I think I have no
    such prejudice. A few years ago a Jew observed to me
    that there was no uncourteous reference to his people
    in my books, and asked how it happened. It happened
    because the disposition was lacking. I am quite sure
    that (bar one) I have no race prejudices, and I think
    I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor
    creed prejudices. Indeed, I know it. I can stand any
    society. All that I care to know is that a man is a
    human being -- that is enough for me; he can't be any
    worse. I have no special regard for Satan; but, I can
    at least claim that I have no prejudice against him.
    It may even be that I lean a little his way, on
    account of his not having a fair show. All religions
    issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious
    things about him, but we never hear his side. We have
    none but the evidence for the prosecution, and yet we
    have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is
    irregular. It is un-English; it is un-American; it is
    French. Without this precedent Dreyfus could not have
    been condemned. Of course Satan has some kind of a
    case, it goes without saying. It may be a poor one,
    but that is nothing; that can be said about any of us.
    As soon as I can get at the facts I will undertake his
    rehabilitation myself, if I can find an unpolitic
    publisher. It is a thing which we ought to be willing
    to do for any one who is under a cloud. We may not pay
    him reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we
    can at least respect his talents. A person who has for
    untold centuries maintained the imposing position of
    spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and
    political head of the whole of it, must be granted the
    possession of executive abilities of the loftiest
    order. In his large presence the other popes and
    politicians shrink to midges for the microscope. I
    would like to see him. I would rather see him and
    shake him by the tail than any other member of the
    European Concert."

    Best, Jeff Davis

                   "You are what you think."
                                  Jeff Davis

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