From: Eliezer S. Yudkowsky (sentience@pobox.com)
Date: Mon Jun 16 2003 - 03:52:38 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
> Eliezer writes
>>
>>It is *ridiculous* to suppose that *anyone* on the Extropians mailing
>>list, regardless of their other politics, supports Hussein. The prior
>>probability is so low that making such a comment is either an ad hominem
>>debating tactic, or human tribal thinking resulting in the sheer STUPIDITY
>>and WARPING of intellect necessary to distort one's probabilities THAT FAR
>>away from the simple COMMON SENSE that NOBODY on the Extropians mailing
>>list is likely to support Hussein! What is going on here cannot possibly
>>be Bayesian reasoning.
>
> Alas, your extremely strong wording is only symptomatic
> of something very bad I fear is happening to you.
Do not worry. No irrationality is occurring. I am simply becoming
Annoyed. This is an ordinary state for an Eliezer to be in.
>>That's not what's going on. Foaming tribalist fanatics such as are now
>>appearing on this mailing list - there is no point in mincing words
>
> Oh yes there is! Your so-called "mincing words" is extremely
> effective flame retardant. Who're you calling a "foaming
> tribalist fanatic"? We absolutely must lower the level of
> the rhetoric here.
Hm. Well, that's one approach to life, I suppose. I've never ever been
able to master it, and I've tried.
>>- are not attempting to use "Bayesian reasoning" or even
>>"rationality"; they are acting on blind instinct and pure
>>emotion.
>
> Pure emotion? Isn't this the second time today I've caught
> you in gross exaggeration? What is happening to you, Eliezer?
> Can't you try for a little detachment here? You're making
> it so black and white.
Please do not confuse my searing flame of annoyance with group
polarization. Quite often I become equally searingly annoyed with both
sides of a particularly stupid fight.
Now of course my annoyance may well be a personal flaw. I have often
considered that. I don't seem to be able to get rid of it, though; and it
would be very very dangerous to stop being annoyed with my own flaws.
Like it or not, becoming annoyed at things seems to be a part of my basic
nature and motivations. Whether I like it or not, I am, by my nature,
rational, fair, altruistic, tactless, sharp, acerbic, biting, and easily
annoyed even at people who are honestly trying to improve. I try and work
with it.
>>anyone who does not support Bush must support Hussein, even
>>when this conclusion runs in total defiance of simple common
>>sense about the prior odds.
>
> You are correct. Anyone committing that fallacy needs
> to be criticized, *individually*. Are you attempting
> to characterize with these remarks all those who value
> patriotism here?
I don't know. Are there any sensible people who value patriotism here,
who consider themselves patriots but have been staying out of the current
flamingly stupid debate?
>>That is how human tribalist thinking works. One need
>>only pick up a history book to see this. I do not need
>>to invent more elaborate explanations for this behavior.
>>Tribal polarization is a human universal and it is quite,
>>quite stupid.
>
> I disagree with your sweeping conclusion. Moreover, I
> think your choice of words very imprudent, especially
> the last one.
>
>>I will *not* pay lip-service to it. That ugly part
>>of human nature is *my* enemy.
I consider it okay to have inanimate enemies; death, human nature,
evolution, stupidity, etc.
-- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
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